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Old 08-20-2012, 11:37 PM   #41
Gurnison
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Ah, Voltaire.

Some other philosophical guy back in history said:

"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you."

The Sermon on the Mount was a nice sermon, even for the non-religious.


Modern translation:

Wtf dude! Are you for real? You are given pearls and you trample them? You ask questions but don't listen to the answers? You argue with veteran players and call them stupid because you didn't get the answer you wanted? When they lose patience, you call them trolls? And the only defense you can think of is to say you've read 52 volumes of Voltaire? Sorry, not impressed.

You say none of your points were addressed? Of course they were, you just didn't listen, didn't understand, or the answer wasn't formatted to your satisfaction.


Look, we want new players around here. We don't want to chase anybody off. You are welcome and even wanted. But if you are going to ask questions of people who know what the hell they are talking about, try to listen. If you don't understand just take their word for it. Nodiatis is a small but deep game. It can't all be explained at once.


Oh yea, almost forgot! Twitter is just history repeating itself. At least 90% of those shortened words have been around for centuries. I'm pretty sure when the Titanic was sinking they sent ... --- ... and not ... .- ...- . --- ..- .-. ... .... .. .--.
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:44 AM   #42
Syn
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unfortunately, gurni, you're version of history is not an accurate reflection of the actual events that transpired, but yet another distorted perception littered with cognitive bias. shall we review for the record?

in the vast majority of cases I wasn't given legitimate answers. I was given excuses attempting to dismiss my points, and when I posted a legitimate rebuttal, those attempting to dismiss and minimize my points got p/o'd and resorted to trolling me with personal attacks and insults, which I can play that game as well.

so let's have a closer look at these "pearls" you regard with such high esteem, shall we? I'll attempt to summarize for the intellectually challenged and reading impaired.

I originally posted:
"why can't I complete both "Collection" quests at the same time if I have the requested items in my inventory?"

Darkdingus
"I'd actually love to be able to get both quests for the same zone at the same time."

Enduir
"I imagine the idea is to get you to spend some time in each zone before you move on. One quest at a time doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

me
(reiterating the fact that the problem is that due to the quests, specifically the collection quests, I'm already being forced to spend more time in each zone than I actually need to level efficiently.)
"the problem is that starting out, by the time you actually complete all the quests, you're op for the next area. "

Enduir
"Move your active experience skill to something that doesn't increase your character level, like Class Specialisation."

me
"ok, again, fair enough, but allowing both collection quests to be completed simultaneously would even out the starting areas, and be honest, how much real disruption would it cause those higher levels?"

TJ
"Completing quests in high levels doesn't take months; maybe an hour or two if you fight in travel mode and have to kill 25 of the same mob type."

"Enduir is right. If you're afraid you're going to cause a mob to turn gray so you can no longer complete a collection quest, set active XP to a non-leveling stat, like epicurious or something."

Illiana
"I used to wonder at the unfairness of getting strings of the wrong mob while questing too when I first started (I think my record was 15 or so straight). Then I realized I was getting trophies for all those "wrong" mobs. Which increased my skill levels. Which made me stronger. Which is a good thing."

(no it's not. it adds to and compounds the problem I described)

me:
"be that as it may, there's really nothing to let a new player know this trick or that it's even an option. I basically just started out by following directions, auto stat cycling to level faster and more evenly as directed, etc. basically, you don't realize there's an issue until it's already a problem."

you
"I don't really see a problem with the quests as they are. If you are OP going to the next zone it's probably because you keep rerolling."

(not an answer to the question, but a dodge)

"A person starting from scratch with no outside help will actually be underpowered if they do the quests and move on."

(not true, as I illustrated)

"How high level have you actually gotten?"

(irrelevant to the discussion, but rather demeaning, dismissive and minimizing)

"I'd suggest that instead of trying to find the perfect class and understanding every nuance of the game, you should just pick a class and run with it."

(again, somewhat irrelevant, etc. as that's what new players do is try to figure things out, etc.)

"As for non-random random mobs, try moving to another square or reloading Nod. Or just escape from combat until you get the mob you want."

(tried this to some extent. it's much more trouble than it's worth and doesn't really fix anything.)

me
(pointing out several of these inconsistencies)
"rerolling resets all combat and magic skills to zero."

"traveler's way, leaving castille is level 1-2 mobs for quest purposes, with only a couple level 3 boss or boss-esque (troll) encounters that are highly recommended to tag team."

"problem with this strategy being that I have read enough posts from verteran player lamenting their class choices later in the game due to inexperience early on, but unwilling to reroll due to all the time and energy invested in their toons."

you
"I didn't contradict myself. I said the quest bonus gold is a nice addition for new players. I also said that it won't last long."

(omitting that you also said "A person starting from scratch with no outside help will actually be underpowered if they do the quests and move on.", which is the case in point you proceeded to contradict yourself on, etc. but this is where it gets pretty nit-picking, etc. you did offer some useful advice)

"There are also other ways to correct mistakes than rerolling. You can redistribute stats, or simply put trophies into different skills. There are not many skills that are truly wasted. Most skills in the game are at least partly useful no matter what your class or build. And if you happen to put points into a truly useless skill, it doesn't really hurt much."

"More than half the classes are good combat classes. And even if you pick one of the specialized classes you should be fine unless/until you get to very high level of play and want to squeeze every last bit of potential from the game. Otherwise it has far more to do with build than class, and build can be corrected as you go. Not to mention that the game is dynamic and will almost certainly change between now and when you reach a high level of play."

Enduir
"Gurni knows what he's talking about. When someone as experienced as him gives you game advice, you can be confident it'll be good advice."

me
(attempting to clarify)
"just to clarify, what I meant by OP was mainly the collection quests. the killing and boss quests actually become easier to complete, but the more you level, the collection quests get increasingly harder to fulfill and take more time to do so. if you make the mistake of leveling past the mob your supposed to collect drops from to the point they become greys, you can forget about it and completely hang that one up b/c it simply ain't gonna happen. you'll almost never get a drop of any kind off a grey mob."

Enduir
"From this I gather you maybe not be aware that it's possible to decrease your toon level by up to three levels."

me
"I was aware you could delevel skills and even redistribute stats, but not delevel your toon."

"BUT ... frankly, if it works anything like the "deleveling" of skills, sorry, but that whole "system" is utterly broken and ignorant to the point of being retarded and useless. without the implementation of an "unused xp pool" for those points to go back into for redistribution, I'm at a complete loss to come up with even one good excuse or legitimate reason why I would find it desireable or want to simply waste all that xp, effectively scrapping and writing off hours or even days of RT and work?"

"I might as well just reroll my entire character, which I have done several times instead. at least then you get the reroller's boon enhancement to help make up for the loss and the hit you take to certain skills."

(in other words, doesn't address the problem or fix anything and why on earth would I want to do something so utterly counterproductive?)

Darkdingus
"Rerolling resets your skills, and also triples the amount of combat XP you gain, making you level FAR faster than before. This might be the reason you find yourself on the brink of OPness when you're ready to leave the first zone."

me
"but the Reroller's Boon is easy enough to toggle on and off as needed though. that was one of the first things I figured out."

Iceblood
(this is where the trolling begins and the entire thread derails and degenerates into a mudslinging match)
"Your walls of text are overpowered without additional powerups from collection quests. Many sentences with comma and clause heavy writing style in one paragraph ftw!"

etc.

so yes, the main points that went completely unaddressed and unresolved were mainly ...
1. unlike the killing and boss quests, which actually become easier to complete as you level, the collection quests become increasingly harder to complete until becoming practically impossible if they become gray mobs.
2. there is nothing anywhere letting newbs know any of the tricks to circumvent or prevent this from happening.
3. by the time us newbs figure out there's a problem it's already too late.
4. you can only delevel so much and it's not an ideal position or situation to find yourself being forced into to begin with.

my original suggestion to be able to complete both collection quests at the same time if you already have the items in inventory would at least partially alleviate many of these early problems that serve only to frustrate new players, hence the reasons for the suggestion, not to mention cutting down on the repititious tedium involved.

most of you are older players so you might not remember what it was like running around grinding hordes of mobs without magic, etc. just poking things with a sharp stick. when I tried to get my kid involved early on, he had almost no interest after the first few encounters b/c frankly, he was bored to tears.

by this time I'd already leveled my main to the point of at least being able to use magic. not grasping his lack of interest, I got on his toon trying to help him level. he had a gaff. that was it. no wonder he lost interest. the fights consisted of him entering combat, hitting "auto-attack" and watching repeated attempts to poke something with a stick consisting of several misses and 1 and 2 points of damage for the next 2-3 minutes. no wonder he wasn't interested. he was bored to tears and the quests just added to the repititious tedium.

at least with a little magic you're more actively involved and it wasn't until I got his toon to that level that he started showing any interest at all in continuing, and even then it's sparse at best. being 11 there are a host of other activities competing for his attention, and frankly, after some of the behavior I've witnessed both in game and out, I'm not sure I want him here being exposed to it, but for now I keep both chat channels disabled, etc.

I listed my reasons for my suggestion and mostly what I got back was a bunch of attitude, flak and demaning, dismissive, minimalistic excuses why "noobs shouldn't talk" or try to otherwise participate in providing constructive feedback.

guess what? if that's the case, I was a sailor in the Navy and a vet of the first Gulf war. I can give as good as I take. I have a pretty thick skin and I've heard it all. I can dish all the attitude you want, but I'd prefer not to.

unfortunately, that seems to be the only language some people understand. too bad they can dish it out but can't take it, but if you dare speak up, draw a line in the sand or stick up for yourself your branded a "disrespectful, insolent noob". well, sorry sparky, if you think I'm just gonna roll over and take your abuse you have another thing coming.

personally, though, I'd much rather have a civil on-topic discussion. again, I made my suggestion and listed my reasons. if you would care to address those, I'm all ears.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:37 AM   #43
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oh, and after reviewing, maybe I need to clarify b/c there seems to be some confusion about what I was suggesting.

I didn't mean GET both collection quests at the same time. I never intended any changes to the quest order at all.

you would still visit the seer and get your collection and killing quests and do the first set normally.

upon visiting the seer to turn in the original set of quests and getting your second set, it would simply involve a "lookup" of your inventory to check if you have the requested items already in inventory and then give you credit allowing you to complete the quest at the same time.

this would require you to actually keep the items requested in inventory when you accept and then try to turn in and complete.

you would still accept the same quests in the same order, not simultaneously. it would just add a simple lookup command code that would be transparent to the player.

currently, it doesn't matter if you have them or not. the quest, when active, counts the drops and upon reaching the required amount prompts you to visit the seer. in the meantime you can spend the trophies etc. it doesn't matter.

the only change to the current quest system involved would require you to hold onto those trophies so that when you accept the next collection quest, the lookup would check your inventory to see if you already have the required number of the requested item and allow you to then complete the quest.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:40 AM   #44
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From what I have seen, often when people use a lot of big words, their actual goal is to hide their lack of knowledge about the subject matter. The simpler way is indeed the better way in many circumstances. In science for example, the principle of parsimony is often emphasized; the simplest explanation is usually the most plausable explanation. Likewise, in literature, simpler language is often preferable. Among George Orwell's rules for effective writing are the following: never use a long word where a short one will do; if it is possible to cut out a word, always cut it out; never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

Returning to the topic of the thread, I actually like the suggestion about being able to turn in 2 collection quests at once. It is not a bad idea.

With that said, I rarely ever do quests. I stopped doing them a long time ago. Even with the learning xp bonus and the extra gold that is now awarded, I still don't do the quests. Here is a suggestion: if you don't like the way the quest system works, stop doing the quests. Find something that you enjoy about Nod and do it. If you don't like anything, then what are you doing here ?

People are and have been giving you good advice. When I first started playing, I had to figure out everything on my own. Nobody told me anything.

Instead of rerolling continuously, why don't you try and level up. It will give you a better grasp of the game.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:48 AM   #45
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I already said that at one point I quit doing the quests and it was strongly suggested I reconsider, so besides passive training and the seer quests, how else can you level your learning skills? I have been told that the passive training will only be effective up to a point before my learning skills begin to lag far behind without the additional xp from the seer quests. is this correct or not?

*edit*

while we're at it, care to point out the "good advice" I received that specifically addresses the points I made that I obviously missed b/c you said so?

1. unlike the killing and boss quests, which actually become easier to complete as you level, the collection quests become increasingly harder to complete until becoming practically impossible if they become gray mobs.
2. there is nothing anywhere letting newbs know any of the tricks to circumvent or prevent this from happening.
3. by the time us newbs figure out there's a problem it's already too late.
4. you can only delevel so much and it's not an ideal position or situation to find yourself being forced into to begin with.

summary:
can you all please stop tap dancing around the points I outlined to snipe and take potshots, form a consensus, and quit changing your "advice" every other bloody post?

ty

(was that clear and concise enough for you, your majesty?)
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:08 AM   #46
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My learning skills have almost all been raised by passive alone. Quests have only recently started giving learning xp and I have been playing the game for a while now (3 - 4 years). In between, I rerolled and quit for around a year and so my learning xp gain dropped to almost nothing (since I was sitting at lvl 1).

You will get penalties to passive xp gain if the skill lvl is higher than your player lvl (same way it works for active xp gain).

There is a definite advantage to doing quests now - the extra learning xp is great. But if you don't want to do the quests, then don't worry about them. (You might as well do the boss quests though).

The older players have been around longer and so they will have better learning skills. There is no way to get around that. Do the quests if you want to. Don't do them, if you don't want to.

Again I think that your suggestion is good - turn in multiple quests at once. Perhaps, Glitchless is trying to make it harder though. Who knows.

In learning skills focus on key ones. For example, active acceleration is a big one. Also focus on skills that increase learning xp gain speed (for example advanced learning).

Good luck.


EDIT regarding your points 1 - 4:

In Nod, the goal is to farm as efficiently as possible with as little down time between fights as possible in order to get the maximum # of trophies and gold chests possible (more fights = more chests = more gold). Most people recommend fighting in areas with either white/yellow or yellow/orange or orange/red mobs [depending on how strong you are]. The goal is to get through the fights as fast as possible in order to get the most trophies and gold. The point of the grind is to develop your character and you develop your character with gold and trophies.

So ideally, if you can do your quests in the zone that you are farming in, you will get the quests done as you are farming.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:13 AM   #47
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so besides some extra pocket change, you're telling me basically the exact opposite of what I was told earlier. that the seer quests aren't a significant requirement for raising learning skills. ty for the info you provided. I'll wait to see if anyone challenges this. thanks again. much appreciated.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:13 AM   #48
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1. Cap players are giving you fantastic advice for the future of your toon but since very little that happens at lvl 1-20 has any bearing at all on your toon it may all seem a little irrelevant at the moment. Collection quests are actually far far easier to complete than kill quests beyond low lvls and the difference becomes more and more apparent as you kill higher lvl mobs.
2. This game does not like letting you know things...it likes to give you the opportunity to discover things or be social and interact with other players to share experiences. Even cap players are constantly discovering new things that may have been obvious to others for over 3 years. There is no spoon feeding from the game makers...its just not that kind of game.
3. We have all made what seemed catastrophic mistakes while building our toons...is how we learned, just be gald this is in the days of boon and when there are so many toons that really know what they are talking about to give you advice at all. When I started I was told by many many top players at the time to put all defence points into dur...how that advice would be scorned now.
4. See point 3.

I appreciate that its tough at the start with such a complex game...but the beauty is in the complexity and you will appreciate that all in time if you are patient.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:23 AM   #49
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ty, that's basically all I'm trying to figure out. do I need to do the seer quests now or not, b/c unlike the killing and boss quests, once I abandon the collection quests, and get 5 or 10 levels down the road, there's no going back and trying to pick back up where I left off. they will be completely closed off to me in the future so my decisions now will affect the rest of my gaming experience in Nod.

*edit*

it also affects the advice I pass along to my son.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:26 AM   #50
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You can always start doing collection quests or any other quests again. Just go to the seer and he will give you a non-grey quest.

You never get a grey quest from the seer. If you have a grey quest, it is just a remnant from when it was not grey. You can always just go to the seer and get a non-grey quest to override the grey quest.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:28 AM   #51
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that also helps. my main concern was not "missing out" on needed intermediary xp.

*edit*

that, and not passing along bum advice to my kid, and looking like a tool later on.

*redit*

and keeping him interested. he wasn't exactly thrilled when I suggested we start doing the quests again. his initial experience and exposure to the quest system wasn't exactly what I'd consider "positive reinforcement". like I said, he was mostly bored to tears, so I thought my suggestion might help.

if you don't get this, try starting a new character and imagine yourself as a kid. nobody has any idea what your high level gameplay is like until they get there, but first you have to keep them engaged and interested enough to stick with it.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:41 AM   #52
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At this point, I hope there's no changes to the current system if only to prevent a development whereby being a pompus ass in the forums is an effective tool to drive change.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:46 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceblood View Post
At this point, I hope there's no changes to the current system if only to prevent a development whereby being a pompus ass in the forums is an effective tool to drive change.
sez the original troll who started all the trolling. refer to sig, troll.

Quote:
Iceblood
(this is where the trolling begins and the entire thread derails and degenerates into a mudslinging match)
"Your walls of text are overpowered without additional powerups from collection quests. Many sentences with comma and clause heavy writing style in one paragraph ftw!"
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:49 AM   #54
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If you don't enjoy questing...don't do it, but you should be able to incorporate the questing into killing mobs for trophies which you need to build your toon anyway. You get more exp per quest as you increase in lvl so the early quests exp is almost insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If you get bored doing collection quests at lvl 1 stop doing them until you reach lvl 10 then try again.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:49 AM   #55
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It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy this kind of game. Maybe he has a different taste in gaming. I know that several young kids do and have played this game and so it is not necessarily an age thing either.

As for people that troll you, do not respond. A response is exactly what they are looking for. If you respond, they win.

Good luck
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:55 AM   #56
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he's 11 so I get it up to a point. he likes Mario and Minecraft, neither of which I can stand. I like the challenge games like Nod provide, but I would like to have something we can do together, so keeping him interested is a top priority. if I have to stop questing, so be it, but it just seems like a bit of a shame and a waste when it could be easily adjusted to take some of the edge off.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:57 AM   #57
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Oh..and please understand that players may get frustrated with you if you reject their advice or call them trolls. Some of the advice you earlier rejected was not done with the grace that will endear you to a small tight nit community. Players use forums to discuss and of course that will include things you agree and disagree with but there are ways of disagreeing or discussing that are more productive than others.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:03 AM   #58
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if you review, I think I remained relatively civil until the insults and personal attacks began being leveled at me.

y'know, things like
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceblood View Post
pompus ass
which are completely irrelevant and unnecessary, so I don't feel the title of "troll" is unjustified or unwarranted.

*edit*

what I am graced with is a very low tolerance level for BS.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:27 AM   #59
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i think you are failing to realize the help you are being given Syn.


the quests may take too long early on and it may not make sense to stick around and wait for them to finish at times, but as you progress you will spend more time in zones and be able to complete those w/o really progressing much in terms of overall power.


from what i've seen you are just looking to argue, this once debate is no longer such since i have seen all your concerns addressed just not with the answer you wanted.

this game is about trial and error due to the steep learning curve it can have on newer players....which is why you have the reroll option and also why you have boon to get back to where you were w/o the complete investment of time.

if you want all the answers now you have already failed to understand the principle of the game since the mechanics unfold as you progress.

take in the advice you were given despite it not being what you wanted....there is no reason to be a snob to those who responded to you and realize that they have just as low a tolerance for bs when they were trying to help.

*it's awesome that this is family time for you, and i hope it can continue to be a way of bonding by doing something you both can relate. I can help in-game if you wish but atm you may not want to deal with me due to the response i have given. If so i am generally on 'concede' or 'nautolan'*

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:47 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concede View Post
from what i've seen you are just looking to argue, this once debate is no longer such since i have seen all your concerns addressed just not with the answer you wanted.

*snip*

take in the advice you were given despite it not being what you wanted....there is no reason to be a snob to those who responded to you and realize that they have just as low a tolerance for bs when they were trying to help.

*it's awesome that this is family time for you, and i hope it can continue to be a way of bonding by doing something you both can relate. I can help in-game if you wish but atm you may not want to deal with me due to the response i have given. If so i am generally on 'concede' or 'nautolan'*
etc. really? seriously? in case you haven't been paying attention to the last few posts, I haven't been arguing. I've been discussing, expressing, explaining, etc. call it whatever you want. I've even been agreeing. It's called "dialogue", and I call it participating. if you just want to monologue, lecture, preach and condescendingly sermonize and have me bask and wallow in your glory, it's not gonna happen.

sooner or later people around here will learn that we will get along a lot better when they learn to keep their general observations and personal characterizations of me to themselves. I'm really not interested unless it is game-related. this isn't therapy, you're not my shrink and I'm not looking for a self-help crash course on personality modification. what you see is what you get.

as far as the offer for in-game help, thank you and it is appreciated. I don't take any of this personal or hold grudges, nor do I mind what you have to say particularly, but don't get your hackles up if I don't accept it with a nod and a smile, or express a different opinion. I think it's pretty obvious who the real trolls are.
__________________
really? seriously?

"Scepticism is the first step towards truth."
Pensées Philosophiques (1746)
Denis Diderot

Last edited by Syn; 08-21-2012 at 08:32 AM..
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