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anticaster gems
Old 11-24-2015, 02:12 PM   #1
paulodjohn
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Default anticaster gems

I have mentioned this a couple of times on forums in the past, but only now is it really evident of how op these actually are, because of 1v1 arena.

You got people in arena changing pouches to a full anti caster setup at the start of fights when they are up against casters (recognize by starting gems).

These pouches usually consist of

discourage jeweling: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have a x% chance at been prevented. r2 is 50% so imagine higher ranks mostly succeed in preventing.

incidental redirection: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have a x% chance of been reflected back to the caster.

do unto: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have an x% chance at been mirrored onto the caster as well, r2 starts at 50% so most of the time the caster will have his gems mirrored onto himself.

SO these gems are pretty effective, especially when they are been deft drawn, so for every gem a caster casts they will have drawn at LEAST 1 of these gems of a particular rank. Why i say at LEAST is because 2 of these 3 gems (the more powerful ones) are BLUE. yes BLUE, so with replay at 100, every second gem they draw they will draw an extra one.

My question is how the hell can a caster keep up with such a fast draw rate.. especially when they will need anti stun/ daze/ mezz among other auras.

Thankfully there are only a handful of people using these pouches. but anyone i have fought using this anti caster setup has wiped the floor with me. A pouch like this is so easily made it prob wouldnt cost more than 2 million if even.

Change how fast non staff users draw gems or the color of these gems, somethings not right, you could make a fairly crappy toon with 20-30b xp and beat a top top caster fairly easily if u have half a brain using these gems
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:52 PM   #2
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:45 PM   #3
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my perception has been on both sides of the table, does that make me all knowing?
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:58 PM   #4
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The prevent/reflect gems are very strong, they are not unbeatable though. By themselves they are useless, you have to build to specifically beat a caster to make full use of them. Even built to beat casters most doters drain me 10+ times a fight and i have a string where the gems that i put into play do nothing because i don't have the mana/energy to use them, and that's with capped skills, regener primary, mre/pre, and theft runes. Unless you can manage to fight through the drains, cleanse the dots that get through, have regen or vamps to heal yourself and have some way extra to avoid the gems while drained or stunned (stuns/drains/blinds/700+cnt) or to be tough enough to tank through them you will still lose to doters.

On top of that some builds cant compete with non casters (as melee set up to beat doters I lost to just about all top melee/archers/bms trying just about every tweak to my build (vamp/regen/general toughness, multiple weapons, badgers, gems) ) I got to the point that i could beat some depending on RNG, however some i had 0 chance against unless i changed my build and started to lose to casters. Meanwhile a decent doter can destroy 90% of the people that don't build to specifically beat them with ease.

In all, sure the gems could be looked at and tweaked, but without them there is no way to compete with casters as a non caster.
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulodjohn View Post
I have mentioned this a couple of times on forums in the past, but only now is it really evident of how op these actually are, because of 1v1 arena.

You got people in arena changing pouches to a full anti caster setup at the start of fights when they are up against casters (recognize by starting gems).

These pouches usually consist of

discourage jeweling: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have a x% chance at been prevented. r2 is 50% so imagine higher ranks mostly succeed in preventing.

Yes higher ranks can go upto 90% and yes they are blue and subject to replay, they are never at any point (unless magician class using enchantrix stave 100% and ONLY for rank 7) 100% tho. Rank 7 90%, Rank 6 82%, Rank 5 74%, Rank 4 66%, Rank 3 58%, Ranks 2 50%, Rank 1 42%. So yes these gems are going to make your caster OMGDPS life more difficult but its so much more than just throwing these gems into pouch and wtfpwning casters as blaze said they require e/m even tho its a fairly small cost 28 e/m for the rank 7 but not only can fail due to lack of e/m they can still fail all together.

incidental redirection: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have a x% chance of been reflected back to the caster.

Rank 7 45%, Rank 6 41% Rank 5 37% you mean these gems are really gonna make you lose sleep at night when less than half will actually trigger?

do unto: the next detrimental gem used on you will trigger this gem and have an x% chance at been mirrored onto the caster as well, r2 starts at 50% so most of the time the caster will have his gems mirrored onto himself.

Red gems, does not actually prevent any damage taken just mirrors the gem. Mirrors is based off the persons cnc so only really archers/other casters can make any use out of this gem and once again cant imagine top casters having any issues with these gems.


SO these gems are pretty effective, especially when they are been deft drawn, so for every gem a caster casts they will have drawn at LEAST 1 of these gems of a particular rank. Why i say at LEAST is because 2 of these 3 gems (the more powerful ones) are BLUE. yes BLUE, so with replay at 100, every second gem they draw they will draw an extra one.

My question is how the hell can a caster keep up with such a fast draw rate.. especially when they will need anti stun/ daze/ mezz among other auras.

Thankfully there are only a handful of people using these pouches. but anyone i have fought using this anti caster setup has wiped the floor with me. A pouch like this is so easily made it prob wouldnt cost more than 2 million if even.

Change how fast non staff users draw gems or the color of these gems, somethings not right, you could make a fairly crappy toon with 20-30b xp and beat a top top caster fairly easily if u have half a brain using these gems
So a person lines up 6 prevents lets say 1 each of ranks 2,3,4,5,6,7, omg they will prevent 6 casts right?! possibly yes but also possibly 1 gem will come through and wipe all 6 prevents out in 1 go cause omg each gem triggers until 1 of them prevents or you run out of prevent gems. Replay yes at 50% is ruined as soon as you draw 1 gem that isnt blue and lets see 28 prevents in a 50(42) gem slot pouch that leaves 14 gems that you need to fill and honestly only idiots would use r1 and r2 prevents and even imo r3 cause their prevent % is so low.

(btw ive only heard of 2 people using this strat effectively in arena 1 of them brookeland is a beastly op char anyway and 1 of them freakymagic) who both have a lot more than 20-30b exp i havnt heard off any average 20-30b exp toon who comes even close to beating casters using this strategy but please if they out there enlighten me
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:20 PM   #6
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Thank you Paulodjohn, I have been trying to make this point for a long time with Glitchless and the Nodiatis player base, but it's hard for people to realize how broken these gems are when they keep losing to DoT/casters due to poorly built toons. I have spent huge amounts of gold and time towards building a purely PvP toon, and the gear/skills I have are among the best in the game. However, any decent pvp toon with a little over 100 mre/pre and euphoric/manatic/regen runes can spam these gems ad infinitum and effectively stop my damage, regardless of their cnt. It is especially apparent in 1v1 when there is no need to taunt that these gems "prevent" any chance of a caster victory.

While it is true that they can fail, especially when drained, the presence of 4 second stuns and mana/energy thefts can allow users to gain back just enough to set off a chain of prevents/reflects. And let us not forget the low cost of these gems compared to the high costs of caster gems, which will leave casters drained as well after just a few prevents. The point is not that they are so OP that no gems can get through, but rather that they are extremely unbalanced with the addition of thefts/stuns/runes. That being said, keeping stoic aura or impervious aura up will slow gem casts down to the point where the enemy draws 3 anti-caster gems to every one gem cast. I have had over 10 gems in a row prevented by Freakymagic and Brookeland, yet never have I landed more than 5 in a row on them.

Therefore, I offer a few suggestions to fix this issue, which I urge players to consider and improve upon:

1. Increase the costs of these gems - As it stands, the benefit is enormous for such tiny alterations necessary to implement their utility.

2. Add global cooldown to these gems so that no more than 1 anti-caster gem can be triggered every 1.5 seconds - This will allow some more casts to get through in the form of doublecasts and keeps these gems in line with the cooldown of the offensive gems they are preventing.

3. Increase the haste bonus from Deft Finality - The characters who use these gems are predominantly melee. To counteract the stuns/drains that raise the effectiveness of these gems from strong to extreme, casters would be able to deft cast with a couple choice auras out, which in itself takes a lot of time/luck to setup, and is subject to gem shatter. Currently, deft finality serves very little use with 50% gemhaste bonus, 6 gems out, and gemhaste rune, which I believe Stormwizard, a jeweler with high deft finality, can also affirm.

I will try to add more suggestions as I think of them, but thanks for the time and responses!
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:55 PM   #7
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I have a question, so far the examples for these gems being too strong have been based on 2 toons, brooke and myself. Brooke with over 100 bil xp, high upteirs, and high tempers and general beast of a toon, and my self with 70 bil xp with decent upteirs and tempers. How are either of us the avg toon in nod?

I cant speak for brooke, but i have traded fights with ma as doter, and come very close to losing against other casters (trojan and hk). When i was melee, i had a much easier time fighting casters as i built specifically to beat them. Yes my build i made had under 200 cnt and relied upon prevent gems to win, however i sucked against melee/archer. Any melee and archer with similar skills and teirs would beat me easily, or with RNG I would from time to time win (1/4 at best) Now as an archer i have 550 cnt ( and need more) and use this method and my fights have gotten a lot closer (the last 2 fights ive had with hk i have barely won).

As to 100 mre/pre being effective., i have 200mre/pre and using euphoric/manatic/energetic and mana/energy theft ( all rune slots based on upkeeping mana energy with regen rune to live ( all 6+ runes)) and i still got tapped from time to time against casters.

For the record, I'm not saying the gems are or are not overpowered/broken/w.e else want to be said about them. Simply trying to give my opinion and experience being on the other side of the casters.
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Old 11-24-2015, 07:53 PM   #8
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I said you could make a toon with 20-30b xp and easily beat casters, you know it, i know it and most people who have used these gems know it. That is the whole problem. I didnt mention anything about brooke or freaky.

Anyone who builds a anti caster pouch 100% RIGHT will 100% of the time beat a caster. and the worst thing about it is that ANYONE can build a pouch like this because its so inexpensive. upkeeping them is also easy once you can do a bit of damage put on some theft runes, or a bit of mre/pre will do the trick also. Casters are too easily countered BY PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO.

add them gems onto the list of things to fix along with drains and enchanter ca.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:14 PM   #9
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no you didnt mention freaky or brooke you mentioned no one doing it, you make it sound as if anyone can throw these gems in there and start beating casters easily. as i said if you know of people using this effect with great effect who are by no means op enlighten me man cause so far from what ive seen this arena season dotters are to use MA's phrase pubstomping these average builds and only losing to other dotters or builds designed to smash regen (flesheater bms) or specific anti dot builds (mine being more on the resist side freaky/brooke being on the more prevent side)
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Old 11-25-2015, 12:57 AM   #10
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If the premise is that it is both cheap and easy (low xp) to create this build that is overpowered, we'd definitely expect you to be able to present us with some examples of people doing it in such a way, then we'll look into it. Right now it is impossible to tell if this is merely a request to eliminate a perfectly legit counter to builds that typically dominate.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:15 AM   #11
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no, this is basically 'nerf whatever kills me' thread. People expect to have 1 build that can beat all, and there are no such builds, you need to combine and potentially have few suits in order to win fights in this arena which I noticed MA is doing excellent job at. I'm happy people are finally realising DoTs are not unbeatable as people claimed them to be for years
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:57 AM   #12
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Old 11-25-2015, 02:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
If the premise is that it is both cheap and easy (low xp) to create this build that is overpowered, we'd definitely expect you to be able to present us with some examples of people doing it in such a way, then we'll look into it
pls dont hold your breath
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Old 11-25-2015, 02:29 PM   #14
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:00 AM   #15
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drecrease the stun time when u switch staff for melee or bow plz <3
so casters can be verstile aswell >_>


also i skiped all the nerdraging jiberish on the thread and just read few posts and after reading them this is what i think ------^

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Old 11-26-2015, 05:30 AM   #16
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Nerf all class's bonus by 50% !!! Except mine, of course.. DO IT!
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:01 AM   #17
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:54 PM   #18
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Hmmmmm
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Old 12-01-2015, 04:32 AM   #19
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ok i have not 100% done the build, i can beat casters doing this, BUT it cost more than you think, there are not as many caster's out there. I wiill need sever suits and set up's. a pure caster can not hope to win just like a pure melee can. It is a good switch when you know your up against a caster, and yes you can build a just beat caster toon, but a just beat caster toon will not win arena. You have to have several setups to switch too, depending on who your fighting
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Old 12-12-2015, 06:45 PM   #20
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glad to see someone really cared enough about this topic to prove that it can be done still waiting for a 30b exp toon to beat all the top casters btw
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