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Dbl Cast Archer suggestion
Old 02-16-2020, 01:47 AM   #1
Freakymagic
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Default Dbl Cast Archer suggestion

https://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/s...398#post202398

TL;DR
Hellram shield on dbl casters is too strong with not enough trade off.
IMO hellram shield should give a dd/dot dmg debuff to the user.

Build:

-Dbl cast archer, dd and dot, Specifically taking advantage of hellram shield. Effectivly making the dbl caster a "tank" while losing minimal dps.
Overpowered / Un-Fun in PvP , possibly high end pve.

i.
- Dbl cast builds are top dog in pve. #1/2 builds for high end/low end farming.
- Can do very well in pvp as well.

ii.
-Hellram shield is a huge decease in dmg received vs all but doter builds.
-For dders your only losing some dbl cast % or hit % depending on what weapon is paired with the hellram shield.
-For doters they lose % increase to dots or unresistable % but gain dbl cast % with more often paired weapon.
-both have 20% bow firing delay however this is a minimal loss for either build in pvp.

iii.
-Currently two dbl casters in top 10 solo season. (#3 lakki, #8 mishba and #11 redeye just outside) Granted lakki does not take advantage of hellram shield, red and mishba do, although not at all times.
-Any dbl dder who competes in arena seriously will use hellram shield if not totally changing builds for arena.
-Dbl doter is less common to use but the effect it has is the same.

iv.
-Is questionable how overpowered hellram shield on dbl casters is. HOWEVER, it is a very un-fun experience getting blasted with dds or dots while struggling to do dmg through their insane ac.
-As previously stated dbl casters are the best builds for pve. Multiple people have proven that dbl dot can do well without requiring a hellram shield. Any dbl dder being serious about arena will run hellram shield or change builds to healer / staff doter to compete.

vi,
-Runnign hellram shield on dbl casters could be argued as just strong vs overpwoered. However it is an extremely un-fun experience.
-Dbl casters excel at putting out dps. Issue is, imo, when they can put out similar dps while gaining 744 ac + 64% boost from T1 hellram shield, 110% more ac from shield with R6 stone rune and a massive fading shield from testudo. If they lost a significant amount of damage to gain these then it wouldn't be an issue BUT they dont lose enough imo.

Conclusion.
IMO hellram shield should give a debuff, similar to angelic for dders for both dd and dot dmg output when equipped. I dont think it should be so much that its unusable, only so that it becomes a choice to even use a shield and if used what shield to choose from. IMO something like a ~30%/20%/15%? dd/dot dmg debuff.

Reason for this instead of a nerf to hellram shield itself for all builds is it not being the only option for other builds. Melee has many options to choose from. Pure archers focusing on bow dmg losing out on ad is already such a large part of their dmg they lose enough imo.

Last edited by Freakymagic; 02-16-2020 at 01:53 AM..
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PvP rant
Old 02-16-2020, 04:51 AM   #2
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Post PvP rant

Helram's shield is strong on double-casters just like prevents are strong on bm's.

Although in personal experience, I can have fights where the bm kills me at full hp because they've prevented me from doing damage to them for 1 or 2 mins , while at least if I did fight a shield user I can have a solid 50/50 matchup against (Redeye, Or Mishba)


Warning : Rant incoming


However i'm Dcdot, so its a bit better to fight a shield user as Dcdot, but for a dcdd fighting a dcdd with a helram shield, the shielder should always win.

I personally feel like PvP (especially in 1v1) is pretty rock-paper-scissors atm

Shield caster Wins vs non-shield caster

Shield Caster does decent against a majority of non-shield caster setups

Beastmaster typically wins vs everything except against people using shields or strong melee's

Pure archers are well-rounded against everything, but they are dying again. we have no pure archers in the top 16 ( we have Rinku at number 17) .... (I think they are similar to melee in regards of their weakness is solely bad RNG)

Shield Archer, I imagine for 1v1 is blah. Don't have any input here.

Melee is pretty good and well-rounded against everything. I guess their weakness is just bad RNG on fights? (do they particularly have a weakness?)

Shield melee can be a counter pick to some matchups, but generally isn't optimal.

Staff DoT is very versatile and strong against most matchups, it has its struggles vs BM's , melees, or casters that out-dps their tankyness/versatility.

Melee Staffer/whacker is a very niche setup, its mostly good in PVE. I don't have an opinion on how it is in PvP, only one i've seen run it is Flipynifty and he's number 60 on leaderboards, but he is pilg. So i don't have a comment on this.

Double-cast archer does good in pvp if high tiered, good epic hp, and skills. However both are hard-countered pretty bad by prevents with the way they're setup atm. Not a huge problem in 3v3, but in 1v1 its a nightmare.

Just a rant O.o
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:09 PM   #3
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The build in question might be OP in PvE, but not mainly because of the Hellram Shield.

The build has certainly not been proven to be OP in PvP.

There's no Hellram Shield nerf coming. And even if the shield made the class OP, nerfing an LG item is not the way in which it would be dealt with. Players invest multiple millions into tiered LGs, so we do everything in our power not to modify them unless there's something terribly wrong.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:31 PM   #4
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At least you can use the tiny 10% stun chance from crushers and whips to have a chance to slow down their DPS- oh wait Glitch nerfed incapacitates into oblivion and Thraki arrow makes incaps impossible.

I should like to add that they were nerfed partially as a result of people blatantly lying about
-how often they were hit by incapacitates
-how long they were being incapacitated
-what they were doing to counter incapacitates

___

One possible counter vs Hellram DC Casters would be using piercers to ignore AC, but that's a rather low chance of occurring, even if you use the (terrible, and never-used) Blight Barb Dagger.

___

I agree with Tsu that DCDoT and DCDD gain way more from Hellram Shield, and even other shields, than most builds. DW Melee, already one of the lowest DPS builds, suffers approximately 50% DPS reduction from putting on a shield. Pure Archers lose out a bit as well, but not as much.

30% reduction seems excessive. I'd put it at a static 5% or so which doesn't change with tier.
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Old 02-16-2020, 01:16 PM   #5
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Its funny prevents were nerfed to allow them to dps relentlessly... now they can tank better than a tank while dealing same dps... good job i dont care bout pvp enough to whine. but hey lakki smile u aint getting nerfed. keep lying it does wonders
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ummm
Old 02-16-2020, 06:09 PM   #6
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Ok this is to the point of stupid. I've only been playing this game over a year so I might be ignorant of somethings but this I am sure of.

Current ac 4391 with HR shield,without ac pot which I haven't used in 1v1. I can achieve over 4k ac with my Raiden Shield, soooooo... Its a tier issue not a HR or Core issue.

You all act like a dc anything is going to make you change a build or steal your champ status, and you know that's impossible. 1v1 is WW or a high tiered BM plain and simple. End of story to say anything else is a pure lie atm. Trickster might get there one day only time will tell. I've practiced against an anti-magic suit to get an idea of cnc vrs cnt and that piss poor suit limited a 1200cnc to 30% a real one I tried against was 10% and Im sure players have better ones out there.

Don't know why this is suddenly an issue as I haven't done any real arenas except yesterday and I haven't had a match against Freaky in a long time, actually it was against him as a trickster and he won almost every time.

Ill never finish past top 10 in 1v1 so you all can quit crying now.

1) I wasn't born in the generation(s) that received a controller as a pacifier at birth.

2) Age and mileage slows ones reaction time. I have plenty of both, and anyone telling you different is lying to themselves.

3) Hands of a gorilla. Even a perfect center keystroke for me has at least a 25% chance of engaging a 2nd key a poorly placed one can get 3 at one time;

Add all of this up and I have a reaction time measured in seconds not the milliseconds of a true pvp'er. So, no matter what my build is or the tier'd gear I have, I will never be a top contender in 1v1.

And for those who STILL think I'm trying to buy a champ title, give me a break. Not even a noob like me would try to buy a title with a Gatherer... that's soooo laughable it only shows how little you use that space between your ears.

Freaky

I should use prior comments made by you on so many different posts to point out your hypocrisy here but it would take way to long. But your points about needing to adapt, No 1 build beats them all, and ITS UP TO THE PLAYER to figure out how to beat their builds counter are few and all are very applicable here.

I never once complained when you and others killed me non stop, every PVP match in 10 seconds or less. You all threw "Improve" at me endlessly. 30k+ openers or insane DD damage ate threw 20k hps usually in the first volley. Did I complain, NO. I IMPROVED! I figured out how to live long enough to learn some of the mechanics of my build.

You say: " HOWEVER, it is a very un-fun experience getting blasted with dds or dots while struggling to do dmg through their insane ac. "

I Say: it is a very un-fun experience to see 3,2,1 you lose "IMPROVE"


The Helram shield does what it was design for, to increase ones ac to offset others damage. You are upset at the use of it by one type of build and suggest that it needs nerfed for them only. If you cant see your own hypocrisy then it's a mute point in taking to you.

You argue that dcdot with helram is to OP and puts out too much damage, but fail to mention they do it to stop INSANE openers that instant kill them or that their damage is over time. You also down play the offset that hits a dcdot by using a shield. 100 AD along with 20% for archery, not to mention losing the 33%+ damage for beheader is massive. I use the helram for openers and most of the time switch out after the first few ticks if I can afford the time loss. But I lose to other casters or have extremely close matches because I have to start the fight with shield and cant afford the lost time to switch.

Darklords

You slammed Lakki as you always do and it was even stated by Freaky Lakki doesn't use a shield. How would this affect him in anyway??? At least take time to read and understand the subject before posting your auto troll response.

TO Everyone else that is Crying about the Dcdot Shafter Build - if its so damned OP why is there only 2 or 3 of them worth mentioning??? Answer is.... Because you know that any Shafter can be shutdown without out fail with the right gear and will fail you in the end in 1v1.
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishba View Post

Freaky

I should use prior comments made by you on so many different posts to point out your hypocrisy here but it would take way to long. But your points about needing to adapt, No 1 build beats them all, and ITS UP TO THE PLAYER to figure out how to beat their builds counter are few and all are very applicable here.

I never once complained when you and others killed me non stop, every PVP match in 10 seconds or less. You all threw "Improve" at me endlessly. 30k+ openers or insane DD damage ate threw 20k hps usually in the first volley. Did I complain, NO. I IMPROVED! I figured out how to live long enough to learn some of the mechanics of my build.

You say: " HOWEVER, it is a very un-fun experience getting blasted with dds or dots while struggling to do dmg through their insane ac. "

I Say: it is a very un-fun experience to see 3,2,1 you lose "IMPROVE"
Maybe i wasnt clear in my post. So let me try and clarify.

I dont have an issue with people using hellram shield. As i said its a question if its over powered or not. My issue with hellram shield specifically on double casters is they gain too much tnakyness for not enough loss imo. Obviously glitch has already commented and said its not an issue so *Shrug* is what it is. Yes dbl dot loss's out on more then dbl dd. Yes, there is the argument to be made about other builds opener/one shot abilities.

To me a dbl caster is a glass canon. You do very high dps while being fragile. Hellram shield completely changes this and morfs the build into some above avg dps/tank. Its not that i cant beat the build or anything like that its simply a item on a build that changes such the core of the build it should be worth looking at to change. Hence i posted about it to get others (specifically glitchs) thoughts on it.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:13 AM   #8
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Hypocrisy and misinformation are rampant in virtually all balance discussion. Those responsible are sometimes so wrapped in emotion that they are not aware of what they're doing. It's best to focus only on the demonstrable facts, the most blatant of which at the moment:

Double Casters have simply not been shown to be even close to OP in PvP.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
Hypocrisy and misinformation are rampant in virtually all balance discussion. Those responsible are sometimes so wrapped in emotion that they are not aware of what they're doing. It's best to focus only on the demonstrable facts, the most blatant of which at the moment:

Double Casters have simply not been shown to be even close to OP in PvP.
While they may have never finished all that high, it's a bit ridiculous you need to invest your build fully into countering 1 type of thing in order to beat them, I can think of no other build that will require your entire setup to be directly against that one thing like you have to do vs dots, either DC dot or staff dot.

More to the point of this thread, the hellram shield provides double casters a huge boost to their survivability while not reducing their dps a proportionate amount. AC plays a major role in reducing damage taken, and to me defeats the purpose behind the double cast setup of being the glass cannon it has always been portrayed to be.

It hasn't ever really been brought up before due to the way resists used to work, and the lack of people who were running the hellram shields in pvp. They've always been strong, but they are far more frequently used now.
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Old 02-17-2020, 01:34 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsutsu View Post
More to the point of this thread, the hellram shield provides double casters a huge boost to their survivability while not reducing their dps a proportionate amount.
Agreed. It does that. There are a ton of LGs that have great benefits without a proportionate disadvantage - many without any disadvantage whatsoever. There are some builds that can make use of them, and some that cannot. It's not a justification for a need to rebalance in any way shape or form.
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:44 AM   #11
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Yeah this is kinda rediculous.
First of all mishba has a t9 setup with a t8/t9 Helram shield. About 20 billion worth of gear so if he beats you, that’s why.

Secondly. I’ve lost with a Helram shield. Yes it makes me tanky and helps me not get insta killed, but that doesn’t mean I beat everyone because I smack on a helram shield.
Builds like brooke will beat me 99% of the time if I’m a dcdd shield or not.
You still sacrifice some dps and I still can still easily get countered.

Now as a dcdot, I strongly believe that a dcdot does better with a boiler rather than a helram shield setup. You sacrifice an immense amount of dps. That’s proven when Lakki defeats Mishba considering mishba’s high tiers.

The reason I’m in the top 15 even is because I’ve made efforts to countering ppl. Using toads mostly to counter the samurai and pet bleeds. They’re honestly the main reason I’m beating ppl. I’m the only person in the top 15 that’s a dcdd, besides San who doesn’t even use a shield to my knowledge.

To conclude this, it goes to show which builds are actually good in 1v1 that’s in top 10:
-3 melee WW (seems to be best)
-3 bmers (b4 zod rerolled)
-4 Dotters

-San and I are just barely sliding in as a dcdd
-Archers just suck in this format.

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Old 02-17-2020, 12:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
Agreed. It does that. There are a ton of LGs that have great benefits without a proportionate disadvantage - many without any disadvantage whatsoever. There are some builds that can make use of them, and some that cannot. It's not a justification for a need to rebalance in any way shape or form.
What happened to all the pure archers? The top 16 is pretty diverse, it seems Rinku slipped in to the top 16, but there are 0 pure archers in the top 10 at the moment.

I know double-cast archer is a form of archer and we have a good amount of double-casters in the top 10, but Pure archers are basically ghosts atm O.o

Its strong in 3v3, but still
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Old 02-20-2020, 09:17 PM   #13
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Old 02-21-2020, 12:55 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakki View Post
What happened to all the pure archers? The top 16 is pretty diverse, it seems Rinku slipped in to the top 16, but there are 0 pure archers in the top 10 at the moment.

I know double-cast archer is a form of archer and we have a good amount of double-casters in the top 10, but Pure archers are basically ghosts atm O.o

Its strong in 3v3, but still
Pros and Cons of Being Pure (Non-Shield Archer)
Pro: Shoot 20% faster, Aerial Dominion
Cons: Lose out on 3.5k AC, Resist Chance from One With Nature, and Block Chance/Deflect Chance

__

Trickshot, especially the Kite aspect of it seems really interesting to me. (Of course, you can get all the benefits of Trickshot while being a Hellram-using DC caster). It'd be interesting to see what most people's actual kite percentage is, especially now that Glitch has given us more insight about how stats affect defender-activated skills.

As for the doubleshot chance, Trishot chance is 10% base. If you use a pretty standard double Doubler setup (5% each) and a Thraki bow (7%), that chance becomes 24.5%, meaning a 75.5% chance to singleshot, resulting in 1.489 average shots per attack.

21% chance to doubleshoot instead of singleshooting means 24.5% chance to trishot, 15.9% chance to doubleshoot, and 59.6% chance to singleshot, for an average of 1.648 shots on average.

That's a 10.7% increase in ranged damage, on average. There's some loss of efficiency with Ambush's increased chance of trishot, but that's not a major issue in longer fights.

Assuming max damage bonus efficiency is similar to melee, the ranged damage bonus of Trickshot is pretty much identical to that of the Archer class, so you're getting the full damage bonus of an archer plus the Kiting bonus. The biggest advantage would probably come from using a Dragon's Talon Bow.

__

It'd be nice to see some LGs, whether bows, quivers, or arrows, with more synergy with archer skills and the new LG class. I think both the Samurai Bow and the Gladiator's Bow are pretty much the exact opposite of this.

Something more along the lines of:

'Every time you successfully kite, this bow will cure you for 100 damage.'

would be better in my opinion. Then again, I'm just not a fan of items that work by you doing absolutely nothing.
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