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Rating Sabotage Through Temp Teams
Old 10-11-2017, 11:07 AM   #1
Soxson
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Default Rating Sabotage Through Temp Teams

It has become apparent that Tsurguyb has been using a temporary team to siphon rating from his competitors and then disbanding the temp team to reset rating and forming a new temp to continue to drain rating.

Kainith and Tsur are the same person and presumably on the same email, so they wont ever face each other. But with Kainith's team struggling to maintain #1, several people have noticed that Tsur/Dan/Zvek, a temp team, would reset their rating through disbanding and form a new team with different thirds and continue to sap rating from anyone they can beat.

This is a dirty tactic but Blaze argued that it's not technically against the rules and can easily be defended using cheap excuses. But Dawl pointed out that throwing in arena was once not against the rules until it became apparent that people were abusing it and is now a bannable offense. This tactic is most definitely shady and should be looked into

Discussion anyone? I've gotten opinions from both sides of the argument.
My opinion is that this tactic severely hurts the integrity of the arena system and will be used again by even more people if nothing is done about it, resulting in even more arena drama in the following seasons.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:28 PM   #2
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Since their team has been doing this a few times, it is evident that they are doing this on purpose to sap all the teams in arena's rating. It can be easily identified by checking the top lists and their W/L resetting and rating resetting every few days. Although this isn't against the rules, i think this topic should be brought to discussion because it isn't the point of arena. To the stance that arena champions should beat everyone regardless of sapping teams or not, shouldn't a real champion win regardless of other teams having to get thrown matches too? Since they are obviously not powerful enough?
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:57 PM   #3
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As a previous arena champion and enthusiast, I strongly believe that competitive arena is a war waged on several fronts. Whether each battle is decided by gold, experience, effort, or intellect, it is natural and appropriate that the individual or team that makes the best use of these resources comes out on top. On one hand, making use of powerful alts to defeat maladaptive foes is veritable strategy. On the other hand, repeatedly reforming to drain more rating hurts more than primary competitors and ends up undermining the efforts of lower ranked teams. In this way, the method of repeatedly reforming can be said to detract from the arena system itself. In order to resolve this issue, Glitchless should reinforce the constraints of the matching and rating loss algorithm to place greater weight on individual rating rather than team rating. This way, the strategy is preserved while the negative impact is removed.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:07 PM   #4
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If it's an exploit it shouldn't be allowed. Like the shafts exploit that was recently fixed. But by disbanding team constantly to leech top teams to remain on top is so wrong on many occasions. Mircibeast and Dawn team lose to them it's fine. But by staying low rating to maximize their rating gains is not being a good contender especially if you are trying to keep your other team in first. I got screens hots of disbanding team if needed. Based on my evidence I saw at least three times they have done that.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:12 PM   #5
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some kinda "strategy" not everyone has the OP alts to do...using them as rating siphoners against other people cause you know they cant fight against your main team just so you can try and make sure your mains end up on top
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:25 PM   #6
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Yes i tried messaging glitch about it no response. I waited and waited to see how far they would go with this but it went too far and quite frankly this is definitely an exploit. It is true, he has been disbanding his team to leach other ratings. I also notice Kainith's team (tsurguy's alt) has been queuing a lot less because of it to maintain their ratings to leach others.

Although Freakymagic did the same as well since his toon (frisky) is teamed up with kainith, he did this at least once and did not abuse this exploit.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:11 PM   #7
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Yeah, it certainly looks like abusing nod mechanics in a way they are not supposed to be used. Should be fixed.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:18 PM   #8
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tbh. I arena for bonus and tempers. I'm not strong enough to arena for top list scores and all that...took me a while to try and reach my goal of 2k rating (still not quiet there yet) but because of the fact arena gives rewards like the free lg to winner and tc's people get so competitive as to pourposly drag others down even ones who aren't in it for those rewards...seems like they are just trying to drag others down so come arena end he gets the new lg. and the siphon teams due to being OP anyways jump straight up in rating so they also get tons of the tc rewards for coming in top places...this really drags down arena in general and even just wanting to que for temper rating when they so easily snatch it away. please find a way to stop this ty

Last edited by Demons; 10-11-2017 at 05:20 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:21 PM   #9
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lol, nice signature
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:40 PM   #10
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I would also like to see this stop. +1
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:07 PM   #11
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You can't see this stop in entirety, but we could implement a limit where you could only form or join an arena team once per week or twice per month, but there's bound to be some innocent collateral damage.
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:46 PM   #12
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sounds like it would be a little way to try and avoid it but would sounds like you can still swap out 1 or 2 members of the same team each week. and if you made it so you couldn't even do that then it would hurt the fact that you couldn't switch team mates and every team would kinda really be perm atleast for a while which doesn't sound so bad but sometimes you gota switch team mates due to inactivite and such
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:47 PM   #13
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The issue is that there are fewer actual people running more and more strong toons. Limiting the times you can join/form arena teams may not be very effective if tsur and alga can still form multiple strong temp teams and simply wait out the intervals on several siphon teams. Id just like to see this stop overall and protect the integrity of the arena format.

Alga and tsur know exactly what they're doing but will use every cheap excuse in the book to defend their shady tactics.
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:38 PM   #14
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this is great
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Old 10-11-2017, 09:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
You can't see this stop in entirety, but we could implement a limit where you could only form or join an arena team once per week or twice per month, but there's bound to be some innocent collateral damage.
Actually Glitch, there 'might' be a simpler solution that could solve another 'opportunity' as well. (Oh HI! Glitch, long time no see!)

Just limit or eliminate the rating loss by losing to teams 'significantly' below your own rating. It's been a problem for literally years now where "spoiler" teams are put together at the last minute (or last couple of weeks) and go ramming up through the ranks due to collecting a) a handful of "overpowered" (whatever those are anymore) players and b) building a team specifically to fight against whatever the top teams are running. And while you could argue that this is a valid strategy, it rewards powerful players that already have maxed out tempers and neither need tokens nor fights and are simply in it to act as spoilers while hurting players that have actually spent the time to play all season.

So, simply, put a cap on the max spread for actually getting a rating loss. If a 1000 rated team loses to a 500 rated team, they should probably lose rating. If a 2000 point team loses to a 500 point team, while the 500 point team should gain rating the 2000 point team should either lose no rating, or a very minimal amount, since their ability to gain rating (depending on where things stand) is severely limited AND they have already put in a sizeable number of fights to gain that rating whereas the 500 point team hasn't. Maybe set things at a minimum of half the higher team's rating to cause them to lose anything and perhaps a 500 point spread to cause them to lose maximum rating. (And maybe that 500 point spread would have to be variable based on the points of the number 1-5 teams to make things 'fairer'.)

The long and short of it would be to stop people from building 'spoiler' teams, or at least limit it some, and hopefully outright stop people from building 'rating killer' teams, which is what seems to be going on right now.

(It's been a while since I've been active, especially in arena, but as an example, if back in the day, say Thorin and I were logging each other along with Masterarcher, Brookeland, Cyrus, Paulo, Brickk, Excel, Alas, and Nemesiss, it would be trivial for the two of us to start creating and recreating teams that made it to say 500 points then started over with different members, solely to destroy the ratings of the other teams. And since we were using the logins, none of those teams would meet each other arena, but they would thump the other teams pretty hard. Since neither Thorin or I 'needed' the tempers or the wins, we could have done it just for the lols. We didn't do this and we didn't have access to the above mentioned toons, but things are very different these days.)
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:28 PM   #16
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Base problem: Toon sharing - couple people running multiple "OP" toons

Funny part of said problem: People complaining about this "exploit" in arena supported toon sharing and toon share themselves

Solution: You shouldn't have supported toon sharing years ago

Remedy: Deal with it
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormGuardian View Post
Base problem: Toon sharing - couple people running multiple "OP" toons

Funny part of said problem: People complaining about this "exploit" in arena supported toon sharing and toon share themselves

Solution: You shouldn't have supported toon sharing years ago

Remedy: Deal with it
Totally different. Toon sharing was already stated that it's not bannable but a warning to those who do it. Now if you use that power to exploit the arena system is unacceptable. You don't see everyone else doing this and it just affects everyone who is serious for arena.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiSiX View Post
Actually Glitch, there 'might' be a simpler solution that could solve another 'opportunity' as well. (Oh HI! Glitch, long time no see!)

Just limit or eliminate the rating loss by losing to teams 'significantly' below your own rating. It's been a problem for literally years now where "spoiler" teams are put together at the last minute (or last couple of weeks) and go ramming up through the ranks due to collecting a) a handful of "overpowered" (whatever those are anymore) players and b) building a team specifically to fight against whatever the top teams are running. And while you could argue that this is a valid strategy, it rewards powerful players that already have maxed out tempers and neither need tokens nor fights and are simply in it to act as spoilers while hurting players that have actually spent the time to play all season.

So, simply, put a cap on the max spread for actually getting a rating loss. If a 1000 rated team loses to a 500 rated team, they should probably lose rating. If a 2000 point team loses to a 500 point team, while the 500 point team should gain rating the 2000 point team should either lose no rating, or a very minimal amount, since their ability to gain rating (depending on where things stand) is severely limited AND they have already put in a sizeable number of fights to gain that rating whereas the 500 point team hasn't. Maybe set things at a minimum of half the higher team's rating to cause them to lose anything and perhaps a 500 point spread to cause them to lose maximum rating. (And maybe that 500 point spread would have to be variable based on the points of the number 1-5 teams to make things 'fairer'.)

The long and short of it would be to stop people from building 'spoiler' teams, or at least limit it some, and hopefully outright stop people from building 'rating killer' teams, which is what seems to be going on right now.

(It's been a while since I've been active, especially in arena, but as an example, if back in the day, say Thorin and I were logging each other along with Masterarcher, Brookeland, Cyrus, Paulo, Brickk, Excel, Alas, and Nemesiss, it would be trivial for the two of us to start creating and recreating teams that made it to say 500 points then started over with different members, solely to destroy the ratings of the other teams. And since we were using the logins, none of those teams would meet each other arena, but they would thump the other teams pretty hard. Since neither Thorin or I 'needed' the tempers or the wins, we could have done it just for the lols. We didn't do this and we didn't have access to the above mentioned toons, but things are very different these days.)
Honestly that's a pretty good idea. The gap of 2 team's ratings should vary upon rating losses.
The cap to full potential rating losses should be up to 500 rating difference. After that, the losses should gradually lower from 12 points to none the wider the gap is.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiSiX View Post
Actually Glitch, there 'might' be a simpler solution that could solve another 'opportunity' as well. (Oh HI! Glitch, long time no see!)

Just limit or eliminate the rating loss by losing to teams 'significantly' below your own rating. It's been a problem for literally years now where "spoiler" teams are put together at the last minute (or last couple of weeks) and go ramming up through the ranks due to collecting a) a handful of "overpowered" (whatever those are anymore) players and b) building a team specifically to fight against whatever the top teams are running. And while you could argue that this is a valid strategy, it rewards powerful players that already have maxed out tempers and neither need tokens nor fights and are simply in it to act as spoilers while hurting players that have actually spent the time to play all season.

So, simply, put a cap on the max spread for actually getting a rating loss. If a 1000 rated team loses to a 500 rated team, they should probably lose rating. If a 2000 point team loses to a 500 point team, while the 500 point team should gain rating the 2000 point team should either lose no rating, or a very minimal amount, since their ability to gain rating (depending on where things stand) is severely limited AND they have already put in a sizeable number of fights to gain that rating whereas the 500 point team hasn't. Maybe set things at a minimum of half the higher team's rating to cause them to lose anything and perhaps a 500 point spread to cause them to lose maximum rating. (And maybe that 500 point spread would have to be variable based on the points of the number 1-5 teams to make things 'fairer'.)

The long and short of it would be to stop people from building 'spoiler' teams, or at least limit it some, and hopefully outright stop people from building 'rating killer' teams, which is what seems to be going on right now.

(It's been a while since I've been active, especially in arena, but as an example, if back in the day, say Thorin and I were logging each other along with Masterarcher, Brookeland, Cyrus, Paulo, Brickk, Excel, Alas, and Nemesiss, it would be trivial for the two of us to start creating and recreating teams that made it to say 500 points then started over with different members, solely to destroy the ratings of the other teams. And since we were using the logins, none of those teams would meet each other arena, but they would thump the other teams pretty hard. Since neither Thorin or I 'needed' the tempers or the wins, we could have done it just for the lols. We didn't do this and we didn't have access to the above mentioned toons, but things are very different these days.)
That just opens the door to more exploitation if a high rated team knows they won't lose much rating to a "significantly" lower rated team, then they throw the match to their friends (who won't report them, obviously), boosting them up the rankings without any significant penalty to themselves.

A perpetual rating which is recorded and does not decay which more accurately reflects each individual player's rating, which could be cross referenced when you lose to a team to see if indeed your team was expected to lose to them based on their average perpetual ratings as opposed to their actual artificially lowered team rating could work. It would make for a far more robust system that was difficult to manipulate with this sort of thing. Right now we're arse deep in the promised mobile app coding, so it'd be difficult to just whip something up at the moment, but we'll look into it and see if it can be done quickly or not.

In the mean time, it's hard to see the harm in preventing any more team formations or modifications during Rush Week. Does anyone have a reason why we should not simply disable this at the start of Rush to at least prevent this from occurring at the very end when it matters most?
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
That just opens the door to more exploitation if a high rated team knows they won't lose much rating to a "significantly" lower rated team, then they throw the match to their friends (who won't report them, obviously), boosting them up the rankings without any significant penalty to themselves.

A perpetual rating which is recorded and does not decay which more accurately reflects each individual player's rating, which could be cross referenced when you lose to a team to see if indeed your team was expected to lose to them based on their average perpetual ratings as opposed to their actual artificially lowered team rating could work. It would make for a far more robust system that was difficult to manipulate with this sort of thing. Right now we're arse deep in the promised mobile app coding, so it'd be difficult to just whip something up at the moment, but we'll look into it and see if it can be done quickly or not.

In the mean time, it's hard to see the harm in preventing any more team formations or modifications during Rush Week. Does anyone have a reason why we should not simply disable this at the start of Rush to at least prevent this from occurring at the very end when it matters most?
Actually for rush week maybe you can implement a system where you can lock the ability to actually join any arena team. This will prevent rushers or leachers to make an arena team last minute. And just maybe for future arenas, to have a limit of how many arena teams you can join, i'd day 2 weeks before arena rush or whenever rush is announced.

Also for the rating gaps. For example if i had 2500 ratings, and I'm verses a friend with 500 ratings. Both teams should gain or lose the minimum to actually prevent the throwing exploit. So if I thew the match they would gain 1 point. And as the gaps get smaller the rating gains and losses become bigger until the cap of 500 or so rating difference comes. Once the gap difference reaches 500 teams should be able to lose or gain 12 points.
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