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Advoidance Gem line Imbalance
Old 01-30-2020, 09:48 AM   #1
Mishba
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Default Advoidance Gem line Imbalance

Core imbalance between the 4 main sources of damage

While melee, range (bow), and pet (melee) have no restrictions that limit the amount attacks they can perform, Spell casters do. They are limited to only being able to cast gems as long as they manage their energy/mana (e/m) pools. If they for any reason drop to low they can only wait till they recover enough to cast again. Yes they can swing a staff, shoot a bow, and pets still attack BUT their main source of dps is shut down. No other form of dps suffers this issue. I know this isn?t a surprise to anyone but it needed to be emphasized show the really true imbalance in the damage avoidance line of gems.

Discourage Jeweling 35-70% chance of success? usage cost 25/25 to 48/48 e/m
Arrow Avoidance 35 ? 65% chance of success ? usage cost 35/35 to 65/65 e/m
Tangle Attacker 40 to 70% chance of success ? usage cost 25/25 to 43/43 e/m

Arrow avoid and Tangle Attacker were added after Discourage J. gem, and I?m told that it was balance it all out. I do admit that all gems cost and do the same thing close enough to be considered equal, to have a % chance to stop the next attack. AV and TA DO NOT have a secondary effect. It ends at the stopping of an attack. It doesn?t affect their ability for any future attacks in any way.

The Discourage Jeweling (DJ) gem has a secondary effect that only affects DPS Spell casters in a major way. They have a limited # of attacks based on their e/m pools and their ability to manage it. If they cast against a DJ they have to expend e/m to do so, if the DJ is successful in preventing it they just lost up to 600+ mana with no hopes of e/m draw or dividends to resupply.

Example of spam abuse:
A full pouch of DJ?s ( less than 500k ) and a few support gems and rest Blood gems to upkeep e/m, has a 52.5% chance of success at any given time. When spam casting nothing but this pouch, an opposing DPS caster has no chance to get in front and stop it or even slow it. The line doesn?t use GCD and to maintain and endless stream of these is so easy to manage. The dps caster has 2 options, switch to a melee build or cast away and pray the rng god over bless them ? the normal result is self-drain after 4 cast average. It unavoidable, no gear tiering, different weapons, shatters, or tactics can change the outcome.

Here are my suggestions to fix this: Each suggestion is standalone

1) Revamp all forms of attacks and tie them to a maintenance pool like a caster and keep the gem line intact. How realistic is it to be able to click auto attack and swing a sword nonstop or shoot and endless stream of arrows. This would make it balanced.

2) Make the usage cost of Discourage match the cost of the gems it is preventing. If the user of the DJ doesn?t have the e/m to cover the cost it fails and the gem (DJ) is burnt and the incoming gem works as indented.

3) If a DJ is successful, return the e/m cost to the caster of the prevented gem. If it was PERVENTED why is there a drain?

4) Get rid of the entire line of gems, DJ / AA / TA.

As it is right now, it isn?t even a nuisance to anyone but a DSP Caster and to them it?s an exploitable ? Easy Button[/B]? to make their form of dps complete useless.

I took the time to make a full pouch of Tangles and used it on someone that uses the discourage line well past the point of abuse. It had zero effect on their toon and when questioned after why I tried that, I told them it was to prove a point. I can say the avoidance line of gems has 2 entirely different outcomes.

And just to drive home how bad this is, I got the same BM in an arena matchup with my alt, a Dcdot archer, on Pilg and is lvl 59 atm, The BM didn?t know what class he was from the start so he started as a melee. I had him over ? life and ready for shaft before he started using these gems, and within 3 casting of these my toon was completely ineffective and lost. ? before the gems I was at 90% life and ready for shaft. And this BM is currently rated top 10!!

As I still consider myself a noob, I could be missing something here and this is in place for a reason, if so please help me understand it please?

Mishba
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:10 AM   #2
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Hey Mishba,

You are not taking into account double(or multi) casts.
You can only pull 1 of these at a time, even with deft casting it is too slow to stop DD's or dots completely, if even at all with drain gems and a small % to fail.

There was a huge discussion/ patch on this a while ago resulting on the gem having its colour changed to grey from blue due to The Reply skill.

I understand that being stunned by Bm's melee's give time to put up more gems but there is a staff that negates or at least removes all those gems from play with 1 swing.

I am not one for the stats or %'s of the game but it is more on a par now that it has ever been as regards anti- gem gems, so much so that I stopped using them, that's not to say that it is still not broke.

Hope you get a solution


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Old 01-30-2020, 12:03 PM   #3
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i am using almoust everything what u have described here

and we faced eachother in arena like 20-30 times by now? please do tell me how many i won, couse if i recall well i think i only won 1 out of those many battles,so yea they are broken af...need improvements on them

is harder for any noncaster class to run prevents and gems than is for a caster to run them..and deftdraw speed of noncaster class compared to double casting ?? well ......
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Old 01-30-2020, 12:11 PM   #4
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Lol Improve and TSU would say. Ok clear-out an entire pouch - buy all Discourage Gems r-1 thru 7 add 3 support gems, any thing that prevents stuns, add all the no draw gems you can fill the rest with Blood lines - nothing else in pouch, do that you win every time against me
you can also add some redirects and the others but the prevent line is the best as you take no damage from me and each one will drain me.

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Old 01-30-2020, 03:06 PM   #5
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I know your pain Mishba when it comes to prevents, and i've gotten stomped in 1v1 by them as well, despite these gems being nerfed in the past it seems like no matter how fast you pull gems, (even running gem haste or being larc primary or whatever), the enemy can pull these prevents at the same speed as you can, and you ultimately get drained and stuck the entire time.

In this first video, you can see i tried to counter prevents using blue gems. It didn't work, i had 556 mre in the videos. https://vimeo.com/388059970

The second video, i flat out should have lost and got miraculously lucky. https://vimeo.com/388071787

the third video i lost horribly, I would use gem haste rune or clarifying rune to try and stop myself from getting drained. I was informed the only solution to this problem is to raise your MRE significantly. If i find myself still having the issues to prevents after raising my MRE by a ton, and only solely deft casting. https://vimeo.com/388073895

I had an R11 ac pot on in the videos, and I ran thraki arrow because if i dont run thraki arrow i'll get stunned and he would pull two gems, which would further set me behind.

I ran timmys for the mitigation so i don't lose a crapton of health from those pets. Can't use toad gem in 1v1 because pull gems too slow without a staff. If i ran a timmy and blue toad it could have helped, but it feels like i take wayy too much damage without two timmys. Mongos are so/so since you take massive damage while trying to get your mana up. So i ran a pouch with 2 fdas, and 2 impervs the second pouch, and used gem haste to try to out cast his prevents, or swapped to clarifying if i got tapped.

It is very hard to get through prevents as a double-caster, so following up what i said earlier about raising my MRE and giving it a shot, if it works i'll let you know. because I often have fights where i cast a few gems, can't do anything and slowly die. I'm assuming your fights look similar?

My only frustration is the fact they can pull prevents so fast compared to us having multiple gem haste boosts (larc, jeweler, gem haste) etc. but the moment you take it off to restore your mana, or use a gem to give it back you just die because you can't cast anymore.

I understand that double-casters are supposed to lack versatility in comparison to say staff, but not being able to attack is just insane. just my two cents though, I hope you figure out how to counter them as well

Last edited by Lakki; 01-30-2020 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:02 PM   #6
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the gem line itself is alright, its just the way ubei uses it which makes it a very hard imbalance. if used with aura's out you are not drawing them immediately. which means you are not able to shut down the enemy's gems the way ubei is. the fact they dont go with gcd means they can go off as soon as you cast the gem there is no point adding haste to speed your draws so you can cast them through your opponents gcd moment so he cant prevent it. the only gems he needs to place in that pouch aside prevents, reflects etc. are impervs incase some get through he isnt drained and stopped, and perhaps rabbid and pet haste, but with 40%+ vamp that he has, and when rabbid isnt out he attacks and heals for some nice ammounts each. not 100% nessasary vs a dotter as there is no drawback aside lossing the pet haste.

in my honest opinion the way he uses them is a exploit against dotters, a complete shutdown.
as a dotter i have 100% harder time vs ubei's 600k anti mage pouch. then i do vs brookelands 500m+ anti dotter set up.
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:49 PM   #7
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in the first video u didnt use any blue gems wth are u talking bout lakki...

in the 2nd video where u are being countered fully, you still win the fight... and yet ur complaining that the tactic he using is overpowered? are people really this silly?

like honestly try to be more flexable, you already know he using prevent pouch where is ur attempt to drain him with drain gems? where is ur adjustment to his prevents? go heal pouch out heal his dps. why should ur 1 pouch beat all? bm's are making adjustments melee make adjustments but casters cry and seem to think that they dont need to adjust in arena...
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklords View Post
in the first video u didnt use any blue gems wth are u talking bout lakki...

in the 2nd video where u are being countered fully, you still win the fight... and yet ur complaining that the tactic he using is overpowered? are people really this silly?

like honestly try to be more flexable, you already know he using prevent pouch where is ur attempt to drain him with drain gems? where is ur adjustment to his prevents? go heal pouch out heal his dps. why should ur 1 pouch beat all? bm's are making adjustments melee make adjustments but casters cry and seem to think that they dont need to adjust in arena...
1:07 as you can see i pulled a mez gem, i had a couple mez and daze gems but i barely pulled any in that fight.

Drains don't work for double-casters. We lose too much mana or energy casting one, plus they can easily be prevented anyways. The lower duration also does not allow them to be very useful either.
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:04 PM   #9
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seriously ur argument is pointless, just sounds like crying at this stage, stop trying to be a caster then if u build isnt working and try archer... every 1 of you dudes complaining are trying to combine 2 builds into 1, and want the bonuses from both builds and then some...

your asking for an already over powered build to have no counter, id personally say the counter gems currently in game are still underpowered... you have tried nothing and are asking for nerfs...

This is 1vs1 arena u cant rule the seen when ur a dps class... u still need some form of surivibility your coming up against a class which has both dps and surivibility and expecting to win when they are countering you. there might be a lack of balance for the 1vs1 side but in 3vs3 is where glitch wants the balance.

maybe use what has been trailed and tested. drains work wonders vs a prevent pouch. using daze / stuns also does wonders. stop being double caster if u cant upkeep ur gems... or stop crying and use raiden gear instead of dps. stop over reaching with just dps... simple. its like me using cows instead of stalkers and wonder why im getting annihilated in arena...
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:18 PM   #10
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Alright, so here's a tip for all the would be dotters out there. When I ran dbl dot setup and beat all the "silly preventers" I ran 700-800 mre. That limits how often/if you will ever be drained. Once you fall behind prevents its over, so the solution is to not fall behind.
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:20 PM   #11
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dl. we cast drains, they last 5 seconds IF they go through. and waste a lot of our mana / energy pool. we go archer, whats our hope at all...that our minuscule vamp will beat his superior dps and 40%+ vamp? or no maybe your suggesting we go regen archer...owait...a bm swaps to fleshies and that build lasts 4 hits? and your right lets try healing...owait been proven multiple times dc healer sucks i tried it vs ubei and was drained and lasted no longer then if i was dotting.

its the fact you think a 600k pouch should be a stone hard wall counter for a billion gold+ build. its not like we dont try changing weapons, stats, pets, our pouch even.

as someone who has anti dotter set ups that costs more then a billion gold. i 100% find it stupid i can copy ubei's method and have the same or possibly better results then the numerous lg's i bought to counter dotters. a bm changing pouches to hard shut down a dotter is bs. its not like we would be complaining if he was using legit dot countering lg's liek cleanse quiver, stoics, gladiator bows effect and such, no a 600k pouch is whats bs here.
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:33 PM   #12
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I'm new, but like has anyone tried using low level recastable damage gems so you can spam them at very little mana/energy cost to remove some of the prevents?
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklords View Post
seriously ur argument is pointless, just sounds like crying at this stage, stop trying to be a caster then if u build isnt working and try archer... every 1 of you dudes complaining are trying to combine 2 builds into 1, and want the bonuses from both builds and then some...

your asking for an already over powered build to have no counter, id personally say the counter gems currently in game are still underpowered... you have tried nothing and are asking for nerfs...

This is 1vs1 arena u cant rule the seen when ur a dps class... u still need some form of surivibility your coming up against a class which has both dps and surivibility and expecting to win when they are countering you. there might be a lack of balance for the 1vs1 side but in 3vs3 is where glitch wants the balance.

maybe use what has been trailed and tested. drains work wonders vs a prevent pouch. using daze / stuns also does wonders. stop being double caster if u cant upkeep ur gems... or stop crying and use raiden gear instead of dps. stop over reaching with just dps... simple. its like me using cows instead of stalkers and wonder why im getting annihilated in arena...
My whole point was that you legitimately can't even fight back, I get counters. You complained to glitch about not being able to beat Paulo a couple seasons back when he ran diseases, but ran dairy cows against him. In dc casters defense sit there softly shooting someone with arrows if we can't cast you lose like 90% of your damage. At least you can actually hurt someone with your cows, but Ideally you would swap to stalkers. The only build that can stop your pets from doing damage to you is a Staff DoT that runs melee prevents. Supposedly an OP counter right? NO. you can easily just whip off the melee prevents vs the staffer.

Double casters can't just magically shoot off prevents
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronimo View Post
I'm new, but like has anyone tried using low level recastable damage gems so you can spam them at very little mana/energy cost to remove some of the prevents?
they will just pull another prevent immediately after, that doesn't work. The issue is that you need to be doing damage to them, as they are preventing, otherwise they will just end up killing you.

While the prevents are up, you're constantly being smacked by stalkers that hit for 2.5-5k every round and taking bleed damage on top of it. You can't heal yourself, because they'll pull more prevents which further sets you behind. If you get stunned by the whip. Game over, the enemy has 2 prevents up and you lose.

If the enemy gets 2 prevents up because you get drained. Game over.

If the enemy gets 3 prevents, because you got drained and stunned (assuming your thraki arrow missed to make you incapacitate immune). just take off your armor at this point
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:57 PM   #15
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Before prevents were changed from blue line to grey, They were a bit much. Now as greys i really dont see and issue with them. Ive fought against them as a dder and a doter. Ive used them as melee and archer since the change.

Asking for them to be buffed or nerfed IMO is just asking for easy buttons for something your struggling with. You can beat doter's without using prevents. You can beat prevent users as doters. You need to adapt and stop thinking its broken. I look at most peoples builds and stat placements and gem pouchs and then when people complain they cant beat something i cant help but laugh. When you have poor stats, poor gem pouch and struggle to beat a specific thing... its no wonder.

Some things are a counter to others. Some builds your going to struggle vs in 1v1. When i see dbl doters withe low mst, low pst, low mre and failing to beat a "counter" build... its not a big surprise.

When i see bms with poor stats, poor pouchs, and using 4 pets for everything its not a surprise they struggle vs some builds.

Nod isnt a 1 build beats all anymore. If you arnt having to swap gear and pouch's to fight different builds then there's no reason you should be beating them. Some people have such high teirs they can beat 90-95% of people without needing to adapt. Great, they've put in the time/effort to get those teirs. Just because you DO beat those with minimal adaptation doesent mean its going to work on everyone or every build.
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:04 PM   #16
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Can a noncaster really draw gems as fast as the global cooldown?
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Can a noncaster really draw gems as fast as the global cooldown?
without gems in play, and with deft recovery leveled yes.
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:59 PM   #18
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his method of using the prevents is a wall. even if you try draining him and get some dots through, tact ca he goes. and by the time its done hes preventing again not being drained and that tick you built up is usually a crappy low tick if any
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Old 01-30-2020, 07:33 PM   #19
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how about u guys start using a masquerade staff to counter the counters?

is not an easy button but might act like one...oh wait...u dont want to drop ur shield or double cast to go staff...its easier to just QQ..one guy found a succesful way to counter some dotters and now hell on earth...lets change the game

i know for sure that are outhere some doters who arent bothered by his prevents and can still beat the crap out of him...maybe u should ask them how they do it
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Old 01-31-2020, 11:56 AM   #20
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Mishba,

You have done your research/job and you are not wrong.

I am currently getting up to date and testing things since a lot of things have changed but im in the same boat that you , in fact , it is A LOT better now than before ( in terms of prevent gems).

The issue is not really the gem, the issue was introduced long time ago with "deft recovery" just like Brooke said and like we chatted the other day... and now there is another issue that i already was aware but i just didn't think that i would be alive to see the day....

Back in the days casters were scary because they would 2-3 tap people without defense or anti caster gems and the real issue wasn't not the caster, the issue was that nobody went hardcore enough on defense and a few casters (1-2) actually went hardcore on offensive... then there was a point in which casters just couldn't do anything cause people started to have the defensive skills and the prevents + replays ( **** was wild)

ANYWAYS to make it short i guess what i am trying to say is that things "change" and not necessary are in need of a "change" , i mean i can see the future and im telling you right now, every day that passes , users that depend on a finite resource (mana/energy) will depend even more and need it more (because epic hp) but how sure do we know that is the right time for a "nerf or change to happen" ?

Not everyone has everything to the max potential as we speak and food for thought, Glitchless is super clever and smart , he usually finds the best indirect nerf since he has this kinda mentality ( this is my opinion and i think but not always) of instead of nerfing paper, he buffs rock.


TL;DR :

Beast masters dont have a nemesis unlike the rest because they uptier so well and need really nothing to do a lot of damage with the tankiest options available on spot if they add deft prevents there is nothing you can do but completely forget about ur mana or energy sources. But eventually you will beat one that doesnt know how to use the prevents like Zodrack.

I cant honestly offer a sincere fix for prevents unless you completely revamp the way casters depend on a finite source unlike the others or further testing ( meaning tiered up to my mind with 100 epic hp etc all maxed)
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