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Old 09-15-2010, 04:27 PM   #41
lankas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatperson View Post
im gonna steal the max arrow volley i just didnt wana figure out max crit yesterday

99 bowset
380 max damage

380*1.5*1.5*1.1*1.25*1.15*1.08=1460.12625+30+120+1 50+24=1784.12625*3=5352.37875*3=16057.13625

base damage * cnc/int boost * crit chance * exploit weakness * archer bonus * pain= max crit + flameshot + poison arrow + broadhead + envenom potion=max damage per arrow * 3 for trishot *3 for arrow rain

(my max crit is lower than lankas' but i cant for the life of me figure out why)
yes, my mistake, I took wrong serial critical bonus. I will reedit later
and we cant count dot skills, cause they start dmg after shot is made, and we counting only one shot, that means trishot is one shot.
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by lankas View Post
yes, my mistake, I took wrong serial critical bonus. I will reedit later
and we cant count dot skills, cause they start dmg after shot is made, and we counting only one shot, that means trishot is one shot.
read the side note on volleys and look at my math for my melee volley that i got right

for max crit you are right but not for max volley
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:24 PM   #43
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Yoky, It's she :P and I said in the OP...EVERYTHING COUNTS...so yes 3 targets is added in.
Also, max gem resist is correct, I forgot impedance so that's a big 10k right there!

91.37% and remember people, that's ONLY resists...doesn't count growls, prevents, etc. Pretty crazy if you ask me.

Lankas, nicely done on the max Ranged crit: 1460 with the 99 epic.
5k awarded!

Pk nicely done on the arrow volley: 16056 after rounding on each hit
(1460 + 324)*9 = 16056

Another 15k awarded to Thatperson!

Yoky's post on page 1 updated with correct answer for gem cast volley. A whopping 30,666 damage from Rk 20 Decreption.
25k award WTG yoky!

Looks like 17 categories left! Plenty o cash up for grabs!
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:08 PM   #44
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I'd like to try for max gem avoidance %:

Impedance: 10%
Sor/Dia/MindB: 5%
Banish/Grim/Null: 15%

Aura: 40%
Repel (aura): 40%
Shared Bliss (aura): 25%
Paladin (aura): 24%
Total aura: round(40*1.24)*1.4*1.25 = 87.5% (This should raise an alarm, explanation will follow below)

Blocking: 25%
Rune (block): 5%
Epic Shield (block): 5%

Rune: 10%

Growl: 10%

1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.875)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1) = 0.95019

This means a total damage prevention of 95% without considering chance to hit based on level difference. If level difference is included, this thing may become rather complicated.

Here I'd like to make a couple of points. The first one has to deal with magic resistance. Some of you might argue that magic resistance deals solely with the amount of damage that would be prevented if a gem hits. I am almost certain that magic resistance deals with the chance of completely blocking (resisting) a gem that is shot at you as well. That is why I believe that all magic resistance skills/items are very relevant to this calculation. This is the thread that supports my words.

My second point has to deal with paladin auras and how they are affected by the class skill. Auras have some base value, then the paladin class bonus is applied to it. The answer is rounded, and only after that the skills come into the calculation. This can make a difference, as it does in this case. This is also the reason why yoky's and StormGuardian's calculations about partial damage resistance are actually off by 1% and may need to be re-modified. However, it's not their fault because this way of calculating the total aura contribution is not very logical or intuitive. This is the thread that supports my claims with official statement from the admins. I don't really expect any non-paladins (and many paladins for that matter) to know about this.

Last but not least, the blocking "bonuses" are not applied multiplicatively as in auras, but rather inverse-multiplicatively (as in, the chances of bypassing your shield and landing a hit on you are the ones that are multiplied). This one is more widespread knowledge I guess, but I just wanted to add it to the list so that there are no questions later. Jeff hints to that in the following thread by referring people to his famous signature.


Ok, that's it for the regular stuff. I also wanted to look at the default chance to hit/miss, but information in the forum is surprisingly scarce on the subject. The only thing I found is this old patch where it is stated that default hit chance is 75%. However, it is not specifically stated whether this chance applies to gems as well. Also, I simply could not find any information on how the level difference between you and the attacking mob affects this default hit chance. Therefore, I am reluctant to add this number in the formula. However, just to keep things comprehensive, the corrected value against a white mob would be 0.96264.

While we're at it, I also basically did the maximum block chance calculation in my previous calculation. Just need to add the Guardian class bonus:

1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.12) = 0.40435

That comes to a whooping 40% block rate which seems rather dangerous when combined with reflective shield.
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Old 10-01-2010, 06:50 AM   #45
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storm specifically said ignore rounding since we arnt entirely sure of the rounding order but its also been said that all Ca are calculated last to give maximum bonus which means yours is wrong either way.

also resistance is chance to block a gem not negate the damage we know that already.

also i can tell you that the preventive chance is even higher than what you got you will be surprised by how high it can go.



good try though and looks like your using your brain which is a lot more than most new users

...and welcome to the forums
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Old 10-01-2010, 07:01 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graur View Post
I'd like to try for max gem avoidance %:

Impedance: 10%
Sor/Dia/MindB: 5%
Banish/Grim/Null: 15%

Aura: 40%
Repel (aura): 40%
Shared Bliss (aura): 25%
Paladin (aura): 24%
Total aura: round(40*1.24)*1.4*1.25 = 87.5% (This should raise an alarm, explanation will follow below)

Blocking: 25%
Rune (block): 5%
Epic Shield (block): 5%

Rune: 10%

Growl: 10%

1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.875)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1) = 0.95019

This means a total damage prevention of 95% without considering chance to hit based on level difference. If level difference is included, this thing may become rather complicated.

Here I'd like to make a couple of points. The first one has to deal with magic resistance. Some of you might argue that magic resistance deals solely with the amount of damage that would be prevented if a gem hits. I am almost certain that magic resistance deals with the chance of completely blocking (resisting) a gem that is shot at you as well. That is why I believe that all magic resistance skills/items are very relevant to this calculation. This is the thread that supports my words.

My second point has to deal with paladin auras and how they are affected by the class skill. Auras have some base value, then the paladin class bonus is applied to it. The answer is rounded, and only after that the skills come into the calculation. This can make a difference, as it does in this case. This is also the reason why yoky's and StormGuardian's calculations about partial damage resistance are actually off by 1% and may need to be re-modified. However, it's not their fault because this way of calculating the total aura contribution is not very logical or intuitive. This is the thread that supports my claims with official statement from the admins. I don't really expect any non-paladins (and many paladins for that matter) to know about this.

Last but not least, the blocking "bonuses" are not applied multiplicatively as in auras, but rather inverse-multiplicatively (as in, the chances of bypassing your shield and landing a hit on you are the ones that are multiplied). This one is more widespread knowledge I guess, but I just wanted to add it to the list so that there are no questions later. Jeff hints to that in the following thread by referring people to his famous signature.


Ok, that's it for the regular stuff. I also wanted to look at the default chance to hit/miss, but information in the forum is surprisingly scarce on the subject. The only thing I found is this old patch where it is stated that default hit chance is 75%. However, it is not specifically stated whether this chance applies to gems as well. Also, I simply could not find any information on how the level difference between you and the attacking mob affects this default hit chance. Therefore, I am reluctant to add this number in the formula. However, just to keep things comprehensive, the corrected value against a white mob would be 0.96264.

While we're at it, I also basically did the maximum block chance calculation in my previous calculation. Just need to add the Guardian class bonus:

1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.12) = 0.40435

That comes to a whooping 40% block rate which seems rather dangerous when combined with reflective shield.
Glichles right there.
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Old 10-01-2010, 07:09 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graur View Post
I'd like to try for max gem avoidance %:

Impedance: 10%
Sor/Dia/MindB: 5%
Banish/Grim/Null: 15%

Aura: 40%
Repel (aura): 40%
Shared Bliss (aura): 25%
Paladin (aura): 24%
Total aura: round(40*1.24)*1.4*1.25 = 87.5% (This should raise an alarm, explanation will follow below)

Blocking: 25%
Rune (block): 5%
Epic Shield (block): 5%

Rune: 10%

Growl: 10%

1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.875)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1) = 0.95019

This means a total damage prevention of 95% without considering chance to hit based on level difference. If level difference is included, this thing may become rather complicated.

Here I'd like to make a couple of points. The first one has to deal with magic resistance. Some of you might argue that magic resistance deals solely with the amount of damage that would be prevented if a gem hits. I am almost certain that magic resistance deals with the chance of completely blocking (resisting) a gem that is shot at you as well. That is why I believe that all magic resistance skills/items are very relevant to this calculation. This is the thread that supports my words.

My second point has to deal with paladin auras and how they are affected by the class skill. Auras have some base value, then the paladin class bonus is applied to it. The answer is rounded, and only after that the skills come into the calculation. This can make a difference, as it does in this case. This is also the reason why yoky's and StormGuardian's calculations about partial damage resistance are actually off by 1% and may need to be re-modified. However, it's not their fault because this way of calculating the total aura contribution is not very logical or intuitive. This is the thread that supports my claims with official statement from the admins. I don't really expect any non-paladins (and many paladins for that matter) to know about this.

Last but not least, the blocking "bonuses" are not applied multiplicatively as in auras, but rather inverse-multiplicatively (as in, the chances of bypassing your shield and landing a hit on you are the ones that are multiplied). This one is more widespread knowledge I guess, but I just wanted to add it to the list so that there are no questions later. Jeff hints to that in the following thread by referring people to his famous signature.


Ok, that's it for the regular stuff. I also wanted to look at the default chance to hit/miss, but information in the forum is surprisingly scarce on the subject. The only thing I found is this old patch where it is stated that default hit chance is 75%. However, it is not specifically stated whether this chance applies to gems as well. Also, I simply could not find any information on how the level difference between you and the attacking mob affects this default hit chance. Therefore, I am reluctant to add this number in the formula. However, just to keep things comprehensive, the corrected value against a white mob would be 0.96264.

While we're at it, I also basically did the maximum block chance calculation in my previous calculation. Just need to add the Guardian class bonus:

1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.12) = 0.40435

That comes to a whooping 40% block rate which seems rather dangerous when combined with reflective shield.
Props to this post. Honestly, that's a great post with outstanding points.
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Old 10-01-2010, 07:40 PM   #48
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Thank you everyone for the kind welcoming words. I am new to the forum and the game as well, so I hope that you will forgive my initial lack of experience and any possible omitions or mistakes in my posts springing from that. Now let's get to business again.

Regarding the rounding thing, I agree that we have no idea how (more like, when) the game rounds numbers in many of the calculations. However, the thing with the paladin auras is based on the quote by Mike/Glitchless in the topic that I have provided:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
Pally bonuses are multiplied then the result is rounded.
Then skill bonuses are multiplied seperately and the result is rounded for each.
That topic itself is very extensive and informative, and I have pretty much taken the aura calculations I have done directly from there, only to replace the Thorns aura with the resistance ones. If my number is still wrong, can you show me why, since I seem to be lost?

Now let's see the things I've forgotten. The first one is, of course, prevention gems other than the aura. As I'm still a low level, I had no idea that such gems exist, and they are not listed in the Nod Wiki, so I had to once again ask my best friend here (for now, hopefully), the Forum Search, for that:

Discourage Jeweling: 90% (x4)
Discourage Jeweling: 80% (x1)

I forgot epic pets as well, since I was not aware that damage gems are considered detrimental:

Pet: 5% (x2)

So this is where I end up with the calculations:

1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.875)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.9)^4*(1-0.8)*(1-0.05)^2 = 0.999999100987454

I don't need to explicitly state what this number rounds to I guess? Ok, so one way or another, unless there is an enforced cap of 99% or less in the game (I somewhat suspect that may be the case), your chance to prevent a gem from landing would be 100%. However, note that I have left only one gem slot for an aura, which means that this number can simultaneously be applied to only 2 colors of magic. The number for the other 4 colors is 0.999992807899631, which means that I won't even bother doing the calculation for 2 auras and 4 Discouraging Jewels (DJs) and 3 auras + 3 DJs. It's pointless, it's all gonna round to well over 99%.

To be honest, I have no idea if the game mechanics allows you to take out 5 DJs at the same time and stack their effect in the manner which I have done. I looked through the forum, and trust me when I say that nobody has ever stated or disproved that assumption. I have no idea, so I am leaving that as a question to the more experienced players/admins, and if I am wrong, I will redo the numbers with 1 DJ and 1 Incidental Redirection instead (for which I am still wondering whether Palisade could be taken into account, but that seems to be an entirely different topic).

A second point which I'd like to make is that some people claim that Palisade affects Discourage Jeweling. I don't know if this is the case, since DJ is not a damage barrier spell, it is in fact a gem prevention spell that has nothing to do with damage barriers such as Aura of Negation. However, I could be wrong, but in that case I honestly can't figure how to calculate the cumulative effect. I highly doubt that it is as simple as 90%*1.4, since that would mean that a single gem can provide a resistance of 126% which I refuse to accept. I haven't seen this issue discussed anywhere either, so I think it would be helpful if someone can point me to some semi-official answer.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:04 PM   #49
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I dont think it works like this

Lets say I have lvl 100 impedence and that is 10% resistance to spells n stuff

that means with JUST that skill i'm down to 90%

now I have a pet that takes 5% of blabla dmg

i'm not down to 85% it's 5% of the 90% which is 4.5%
do i'm foen yo 86.5% then another pet, so another 5% which isn't -5% but 5% of 86.5%
and so on and so on. so in the end, your not approaching 0 like they said but something like 50% max
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:05 AM   #50
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ppf he did the math right look at glitchless' siggy if u dont understand
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:46 AM   #51
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Graur wow, if you're really new to the game I am deeply impressed ^_^

First off, the easy one. Your max Block calculation, you're dead on with 40.435%

That's a 5k prize right there Let me know your char name in game and I'll pm you and send 5k your way.


Now to the tricky one. Max avoidance you are so close, I really wanna just give it to you. However, you're missing two things, I'll give ya a tip on one of them:

With discourage jeweling gems, only ONE triggers on each cast. So even with multiple discourage jeweling, do unto, incidental redirection gems in play, they only trigger one at a time...if I remember correctly, it's from left to right. One other thing to note, that Palisade affects only mirrors and reflects, while discourage PREVENTS the gem, so it is NOT affected. Incidental redirection and do unto gems ARE affected though!

Other than that, there is one thing you're missing...perhaps...San here(hint hint) can help you out?
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:06 AM   #52
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it would not be rounded to 100% since each chance is a separate roll which is why you multiply the chances of it not happening together. since it will only not happen when each roll doesnt proc. so single procs like the resistance gem aura will round however 2 or more things when together will not round.


this means that it is impossible to get 100% since there is no single thing that goes over or to 100% however it is possible to get close enough that for all effective purposes it is 100%
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:25 AM   #53
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I am level 21, so I consider myself a new player; however, I see how getting past the first 20 already gives you some good idea about the game mechanics.

My character is as here, Graur, lvl 21 paladin.

Thank you, Storm, for clarifying how the Discourage gem works. That means that only one such gem can be put in the equation. I'll make sure I have that in mind when I fix the numbers.

As for the second hint that San is supposed to give me, I'm guessing that he is actually a Magician? Because it occured to me today that the Magician bonus to blue magic surpasses the Paladin bonus to auras when it comes to this particular problem:

Magician:

>> 1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.7)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.9*1.09)*(1-0.05)^2

ans = 0.997950251394884

Paladin:

>> 1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.875)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.9)*(1-0.05)^2

ans = 0.995504937269482

And yes, yoky is completely right. Even if you have ten thousand skills that have a 99% chance of gem prevention, the overall probability will pretty much slide to 100%, but that doesn't mean that a gem will never hit you since the rolls are separate. This works for an infinite amount of rolls as well. Just because a gem hits you with 0% chance doesn't always mean that it can't hit you, this is one of the most beautiful things in probability theory .
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:12 PM   #54
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so close, try reading through the shared bliss description

Last edited by yoky; 10-02-2010 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:14 PM   #55
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. The outside world. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.....
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:37 PM   #56
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just because you are about as capable at maths as a 4 year old doesnt mean every one is, some people even enjoy it. if they didnt we wouldn't have physicists or mathematicians and you would be trying to catch deer will a bow and arrow.

also it doesn't mean we dont have social lives I spend about 2 hours on nod a day and check the forums occasionally throughout the day. I go drinking about 4 days a week and do climbing and swimming every Wednesday and Friday so shove that up your troll ass and gtfo

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Old 10-02-2010, 08:46 PM   #57
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Graur, so close instead of working different classes and explaining them both...think about...combining them? Then i think you'll have the answer.

Also...recalc the bonus to auras w/o rounding
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Old 10-03-2010, 04:18 AM   #58
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Very well. No rounding, Magician and Paladin grouped together:

>> 1-(1-0.1)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.15)*(1-0.4*1.24*1.25*1.4)*(1-0.25)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.9*1.09)*(1-0.05)^2

ans = 0.999098110613749

Even if I get the answer right, I feel like all the people giving me hints here deserve part of the reward .
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Old 10-03-2010, 05:01 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoky View Post
just because you are about as capable at maths as a 4 year old doesnt mean every one is, some people even enjoy it. if they didnt we wouldn't have physicists or mathematicians and you would be trying to catch deer will a bow and arrow.

also it doesn't mean we dont have social lives I spend about 2 hours on nod a day and check the forums occasionally throughout the day. I go drinking about 4 days a week and do climbing and swimming every Wednesday and Friday so shove that up your troll ass and gtfo
Hit a nerve there did I?

My point merely was that some people get a lot more into the mechanics of the game than others. I play to kill a bit of time every now and then, if people want to sit down and figure the fine details out that's fine and dandy with me. GOD FORBID SOMEONE SHOULD CRACK A JOKE ON THE INTERNET.

Get off your high horse Captain Awesome.

P.S. I'd be trying to shoot deer with a bow and arrow.

P.P.S. We'd still have mathematicians and physicists if they didn't enjoy it. They'd just be a little bit more depressed.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:24 PM   #60
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There ya go Graur Btw, if you don't want all 15k, I'll just give you 14,999 :P Tips are ok b/c I want all these answered rofl.

SO:

Paladin with 40% resist aura and a whip/shield tank magician with Rk 9 discourage jeweling grouped(and the magician would be taunting), with all skills @ 100, gives a whopping:

99.91% total gem avoidance chance

Now, anyone who wants to tell me casters are OP PvP again...can just check that number

Jeff, maybe you can check that number too? :P

Also, just for kicks...ANYONE tanking as just a regular whip/shield user, with no class bonuses, runes, or discourage jeweling, just having that 40% resist aura and an epic shield/pets, with skills @ 100, can already prevent 87.38%
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