Go Back   Nodiatis Forums > Nodiatis Forums > General Discussion > Player Guides and Help
Forgot?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes

Glitchless lies!
Old 01-07-2011, 05:10 PM   #1
Drumboardist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glitchless lies!

Hey y'all. I sent an e-mail to Jeff bringing this up, but he doesn't seem to want to respond, so I'll have to put it in the public forums so people can see wherein the problem lies. (Link goodness on the bolded words, so you can see Jeff himself stating things that apparently aren't true.)

Jeff, you've stated that accuracy is based off of your stat vs. the stat of your opponent (followed by other factors -- see, Assurance, Precision, Trained Eye, et al). Doubling your opponents' agility (or agility + CNT, or....whatever) would cut their Base Miss Rate in half (as per the level difference; for my purposes, I used Black enemies because...well, YOU said what the Base Miss Rate was, so I didn't even have to calculate it).

Using the information you've provided us, if I were using a Crushing Weapon against a black enemy, then I would have to effectively double their Agility to cut their Base Miss Rate from 50% to 25%. This, coupled with my precision rating, *should* provide a 23.17% Modified Miss Rate. Thus, in order to test this, I have 839 Strength and 120 Dexterity, a total of 959, average of 479.5. I would wager this is decidedly higher than necessary to double my opponents' relevant stat/stat-average.

Here's the problem. In the thousands upon thousands of numbers I've crunched, I've NEVER seen a Modified Miss Rate higher than 30%, and sometimes saw it as low as 35-36%. Would you care to address the situation, please, and explain what is going on? Again, I'm not one of these whiny little fools on the boards that ran 4-5 fights and started crying foul...I've literally run DAYS worth of data crunching against these numbers. You've said people didn't have a large enough data-pool to draw from to provide these conclusions...I guarantee you, I have enough data. So I want to know what is up with the numbers I have been producing, and why is it they vary GREATLY with the data you have directly stated.

Either you lied before, or you're vaunted combat system is seriously out of whack. Please feel free to make some corrections. Or respond to my e-mails. Whichever.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 06:58 PM   #2
Glitchless
Administrator
 
Glitchless's Avatar
 
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,331
Default

You have linked some threads where general comments were made about accuracy stats, however, I'm not seeing where it was stated that there is a base hit rate of 50% against black mobs or that having double the dex of your opponent's agi would exactly halve the chance to miss them. In a previous patch a level-based innate chance to miss (not to be confused with a base hit % which is seperate from this) black mobs was reduced to 50% down from a much higher number.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 06:59 PM   #3
Weirdgus
Gem Pouch Expert
 
Weirdgus's Avatar
 
Weirdgus is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 471
Default

So where is this "data" ? And where do you get those 50% to 25% numbers from ?
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:03 PM   #4
Roeth
Seer's BFF
 
Roeth is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumboardist View Post


Using the information you've provided us, if I were using a Crushing Weapon against a black enemy, then I would have to effectively double their Agility to cut their Base Miss Rate from 50% to 25%. This, coupled with my precision rating, *should* provide a 23.17% Modified Miss Rate. Thus, in order to test this, I have 839 Strength and 120 Dexterity, a total of 959, average of 479.5. I would wager this is decidedly higher than necessary to double my opponents' relevant stat/stat-average.
Ahhhh .... you're making a fair few assumptions there

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
With a base chance to hit of about 75% when your DEX is equal to the opponents average CNT+AGI you'll hit 3/4 times. Lets say you double your DEX which and that halves your chance of missing from 25% to 12.5% (this is not the exact formula, just an example) taking your chance to hit to 87.5% or 7/8... you're still going to be able to kill hard creatures if you have good gear with either rating and you're not going to see obvious changes unless you're actually tracking the statistics of 100's of fights.
Please see the section in bold.

In addition, Glitchless states that the opponents AGI and CNT both play a significant part - do you know what these figures actually are ?
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:07 PM   #5
Weirdgus
Gem Pouch Expert
 
Weirdgus's Avatar
 
Weirdgus is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 471
Default

I don't see any lying going on here, thread title is not accurate
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:10 PM   #6
Drumboardist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
You have linked some threads where general comments were made about accuracy stats, however, I'm not seeing where it was stated that there is a base hit rate of 50% against black mobs...
Oh? "...the base hit rate on black mobs was changed from 0% to 50%" Is this not your words? Clarification?

Quote:
...or that having double the dex of your opponent's agi would exactly halve the chance to miss them.
Very well then. "With a base chance to hit of about 75% when your DEX is equal to the opponents average CNT+AGI you'll hit 3/4 times. Lets say you double your DEX which and that halves your chance of missing from 25% to 12.5% (this is not the exact formula, just an example) taking your chance to hit to 87.5% or 7/8." Similarly, "In Nodiatis it's based on a ratio of your Dex divided by your enemy's Agi and then the other skill factors are computed on top of that. You have to play stats by ear." So it's not just a singularity, it's relevant stat vs. relevant stat. Finally, "...the damage is based on your enemy's INT vs. your CNT."

All these tell me that having double your opponents' relevant stat will cut in half the Base Miss Rate. Which you stated before as being changed to 50%. Your quotes. I'm working based off of a Base Miss Rate (yes, the level-based one -- X rate for Whites, Y for Yellows, C for Oranges, etc., all the way up to Blacks). Which, as you just now said....

Quote:
In a previous patch a level-based innate chance to miss (not to be confused with a base hit % which is seperate from this) black mobs was reduced to 50% down from a much higher number.
This is what I'm working off of. That the BMR is going to be 50%, and yet I'm not returning numbers reflecting this.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:24 PM   #7
Glitchless
Administrator
 
Glitchless's Avatar
 
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,331
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumboardist View Post
Oh? "...the base hit rate on black mobs was changed from 0% to 50%" Is this not your words? Clarification?



Very well then. "With a base chance to hit of about 75% when your DEX is equal to the opponents average CNT+AGI you'll hit 3/4 times. Lets say you double your DEX which and that halves your chance of missing from 25% to 12.5% (this is not the exact formula, just an example) taking your chance to hit to 87.5% or 7/8." Similarly, "In Nodiatis it's based on a ratio of your Dex divided by your enemy's Agi and then the other skill factors are computed on top of that. You have to play stats by ear." So it's not just a singularity, it's relevant stat vs. relevant stat. Finally, "...the damage is based on your enemy's INT vs. your CNT."

All these tell me that having double your opponents' relevant stat will cut in half the Base Miss Rate. Which you stated before as being changed to 50%. Your quotes. I'm working based off of a Base Miss Rate (yes, the level-based one -- X rate for Whites, Y for Yellows, C for Oranges, etc., all the way up to Blacks). Which, as you just now said....



This is what I'm working off of. That the BMR is going to be 50%, and yet I'm not returning numbers reflecting this.
You are correct that it was mistated that the base hit rate on black mobs is 50%, it has been corrected in the original statement. The 50% is referring to an extra chance to miss rate applied due to level differences.

The formula examples given are just to demonstrate a rough idea of how the system works, it is not the actual formula.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:25 PM   #8
Roeth
Seer's BFF
 
Roeth is offline
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumboardist View Post

All these tell me that having double your opponents' relevant stat will cut in half the Base Miss Rate.
Lets see the post where this is explicitly said, not something that you have inferred from various posts (some of which are 2+ yrs old, with multiple patches between). In the section you have posted, Glitchless specifically states that this is NOT the exact formula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
Lets say you double your DEX which and that halves your chance of missing from 25% to 12.5% (this is not the exact formula, just an example)
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:28 PM   #9
Drumboardist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
You are correct that it was mistated that the base hit rate on black mobs is 50%, it has been corrected in the original statement. The 50% is referring to an extra chance to miss rate applied due to level differences.

The formula examples given are just to demonstrate a rough idea of how the system works, it is not the actual formula.
Okay, now we're making headway.

I understand that the secondary sections weren't you directly giving us the calculations (that'd be silly), but you were giving examples of how it works. Ergo, one could use the same idea to calculate what the BMRs were for various level-ranges of enemies, n'est pas?

So, assuming that Black enemies have a BMR of 50% (yes, I'm still assuming that, you DID say it went from 100% --> 50%), it would stand to reason that, using your logic, doubling my opponents' agility with my combined STR/DEX would cut the BMR in half? And this secondary number (The Modified Miss Rate, MMR) would THEN be modified further by things like Precision, Assurance,Weapon Accuracy, etc? Am I correct on all of this thus far?

Or, if I'm not, is it strictly the 50% for blacks (still)? Or is it the doubling of Melee vs. Enemies' Agility? Or is it the further modification of the Miss Rate through Precision/Assurance/Weapon Acc.?
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:36 PM   #10
StormGuardian
Seer's BFF
 
StormGuardian's Avatar
 
StormGuardian is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: athens GA
Posts: 744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
You are correct that it was mistated that the base hit rate on black mobs is 50%, it has been corrected in the original statement. The 50% is referring to an extra chance to miss rate applied due to level differences.

The formula examples given are just to demonstrate a rough idea of how the system works, it is not the actual formula.
So if there's a 75% base chance to hit, for sure against white mobs, but since blacks aren't 50%, i'd assume it's 75% for all mobs?(assuming normal accuracy weapon and equal dex vs agi or cnt/agi average?). Then blacks(+5s) give an added 50% chance to miss, as you said, added...multiplicatively...that means base hit rate on a +5 mob is 37.5%

Is that more accurate?



Also, I'm just gonna throw this out there and get flamed for it...but you people who have done nothing with stats/test/calcs for this...just...read, don't respond. Thank you.
__________________

Last edited by StormGuardian; 01-07-2011 at 07:41 PM..
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:41 PM   #11
Glitchless
Administrator
 
Glitchless's Avatar
 
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,331
Default

The base hit rate is 75%. A black mob has a 50% extra miss rate which would make it around a 37.5% chance to hit him without taking into account stats and skills. Note that it does not take into account the skills/runes of the creature either. That's really all that I can clarify without getting into actual formulas which is not our aim.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:41 PM   #12
Drumboardist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Okay, so what Storm is proposing (and interpreting from what you've said), I *am* mixing terms into a whole convoluted mess.

Base Hit Rate -- Whatever your normal accuracy is going to be, modified by any pluses you've accumulated (Precision, Assurance, etc).
Base Miss Rate -- The percentile that your hit-rate is then multiplied against to determine the effective number of Misses you'll see against said Color of Enemy.

Ahh, clarification of terms. If this *is* what it is...wow. That'll solve everything.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-07-2011, 07:43 PM   #13
Drumboardist
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Okay, awesomesauce, Jeffster. Whatever your BHR is, versus an opponents' BMR. Now, to calculate where the extra Hits/Misses come from in relation to secondary modifications, and I can die a happy man.

Seriously? Thank you, Jeff. I take back calling you a liar, seriously I do. You can, like, lock this thread or something.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-08-2011, 12:00 AM   #14
cinderskin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!?!? for example, explain how you get up your hit rate vs +5 mobs to say- 65% or better using runes/skills/breakdancing moves.
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-08-2011, 01:26 AM   #15
StormGuardian
Seer's BFF
 
StormGuardian's Avatar
 
StormGuardian is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: athens GA
Posts: 744
Default

Cinder, don't fret...all will be explained...soon-ish hopefully. We're working out a few twinks, but are pretty close

Glitch is the modifier for accuracy capped at x2? Aka...you said, "Lets say you double your DEX which and that halves your chance of missing from 25% to 12.5%"

Iif you had quadruple the DEX is it possible to cut that 25% to 6.25%? With the numbers we have now, it's pretty accurate for all colors and varying accuracies on weapons(generally within 1-2%, can be accounted for by randomness and possible runes, as no sample will be expected to be dead on with 0% error), but only works if this is capped at x2, or halving the miss-rate. If we don't, the numbers are a large margin off...so...is there another x2 cap set in place, much like the reg cap was set?

I or Drum can provide numbers if needed.
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-08-2011, 05:34 AM   #16
Glitchless
Administrator
 
Glitchless's Avatar
 
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,331
Default

Storm, all I can say is that there is no cap. The gains are somewhat logarithmic at the upper end, however, so it could seem like some sort of hard cap is in place when in reality there isn't.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-08-2011, 04:50 PM   #17
StormGuardian
Seer's BFF
 
StormGuardian's Avatar
 
StormGuardian is offline
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: athens GA
Posts: 744
Default

Very understandable that at a point, it would be unnoticable of a difference...but against black mobs with ~30% miss rates(as tested and seen)...there should still be a noticable increase, even with str+dex around 1000(500 average, somewhere between x2 and x3 mob stats for lvl 86-67 mobs). With a x2 cap hit %s are almost dead on...without it I'm getting a ~22% miss rate, not ~30%. So something's missing

Just to verify a few things you've said in the past:

Assurance rune, epic sleeve + hit chance, and precision all count as different checks correct? (as in your sig)

Weap accuracy would increase the base 75% hit rate first i would think...b/c that base hit rate is based on weapon accuracy? You said 3-4.5% at one point...can you be any more specific or do we have to figure that one out too?


I'll keep fiddling w/the numbers and see what I come up with, a response to those to clarifications would be appreciated.
__________________
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-10-2011, 03:03 AM   #18
tsx
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sooo does this count for pets and gems or just weapons? just curious
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-10-2011, 05:04 AM   #19
Glitchless
Administrator
 
Glitchless's Avatar
 
Glitchless is offline
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 8,331
Default

For pets it is the same, for gems obviously it is different. They have a greater chance to miss based on level differences but do more damage vs. black creatures in return.
__________________
Computing the probability that at least one of the following events will occur:
P(a or b ... or z) = 1 - P(!a and !b ... and !z)
Probability
  Reply With Quote

Old 01-11-2011, 02:49 AM   #20
Gurnison
Gem Pouch Expert
 
Gurnison is offline
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 312
Default

I tested some of this stuff a very long time ago (the game was probably less than a month old). I didn't keep the data, but the impression I had was that the hit curve was very non-linear with a fairly well defined knee or threshold.

To simplify it and only look at dex vs agi:

with very low dex, adding additional dex would result in only a very small increase in hit rate. As you approached the "knee" of the curve, small amounts of additional dex would result in fairly large increases in hit rate. As dex continued to increase beyond a second knee, it would again have little affect on hit rate.

To put it another way. With a base hit rate of 75%, it would take a relatively small increase in dex to go from 70% to 75% hit rate. But it would take a MUCH larger increase in dex to go from 30% to 35% or from 85% to 90%.

My tests were done at lower levels where I think the curve would be more easily recognized. You not only have less skills affecting it, but changes in stats are a higher percentage change. (i.e. a 5 point increase in dex at 100 points is 5% vs a 5 point increase at 500 points is 1%. So just a few dings in melee could potentially make a noticeable difference in hit rate)
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:46 PM
Boards live since 05-21-2008


vBulletin skin developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.