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Some Potential Tweaks
Old 02-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #1
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Default Some Potential Tweaks

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This is likely not the end of our changes to BMs either. They very likely will need a buff in PvP. BMs still have a lot of empty skill slots for us to add interesting abilities that they may now actually deserve, whereas before their further development was stifled by their own power.
With the introduction of solo arena I have been able to catch a glimpse of how other bm's perform under various circumstances. After talking with some other bm's I have come to the conclusion that there may still some small tweaks to move them from where they are now. These will not move them to the front again nor should they given how long and how severely the skill was bugged. The ideas i have thought of should not all be implemented at once but rather picked over by glitch while we, the players, discuss them.

The general consensus amongst those I spoke with are that survivability is an issue due to the inability to use timmies which any and every other class uses. I would go to say that it is tied with thraki for most used legendary. Timmy provides insane regen and some decent mitigation (better mit than actual armor which baffles me) and a bm can use none of it while say a melee-r or a caster can with no downside seeing as there are very little pet procs that can compete with that versatility.

Some of the other pets that are available are:

DS which can have its vamp mitigated to crap by the timmy and other mit sources but does affect ranged and DD damage.

Loris but with the amount of regen you can get from runes it is hardly even used now.

Armored Companion which as a pure mitigation pet offers less than a hybrid pet...granted it has high potential damage but its delay make it easy for a regen/timmy user to heal back up between hits.

Venom Lizard is a yeti with no prevent but poison instead...I don't know why someone would choose this tbh

Honey Badger good for a melee focused build on kill speed pve but for a bm it does less damage than a gator.

Tommy has the highest pet damage in the game offset by the 2nd slowet delay in the game, good for high potential damage but a really long delay between hits. As with the AC most damage could be healed up between hits.

Cuddlebug is a good choice for a tank with moderate delay and decent damage. Maybe the best choice for a bm if you are willing to sacrifice the dps for some prevent chance?

Soul Devourer is a yeti that you cannot control who it attacks. With the various sources of mitigation and the focused defender gem out this pet is probably one of the worst choices for anyone. If team arena were out and a top team were using these you would just need to get the Focused Defender gem an instantly cut their yeti like damage in half.

The reason most say the survivibility of a bm suffers is due to inability to use timmies and the fact that when the delay was fixed it left a huge gap between heals that caused them to take much more damage. Growl can offset this to a point but seeing as how a bm cannot growl a dot they really suffer in pvp in that regard

Now to the part that many people will skip to, the proposed ideas to be discussed.

1. Have the aliangel breastplate affect pet haste in addition to the melee/ranged haste buff on it. This would pull peole away from the obvious Demonskull bp choice that any and all bm's had when they were the best

2. Have an exploit weakness type skill where x crits increase melee damage by 2/(x) for up to y damage. For example every 2 crits (easily obtainable with sense fear) increases melee damage by 1% up to 25%

3. Have an innate bonus of 5% haste when equipping a whip that only affects the pet side where the whip is

4. Change the Aggression rune from 2% per tier to 3% topping out at 18% for a r6. With stalking doubling the delay I do not think this will be too crazy of a change.

5. A chance to hit skill, every other weapon type has it so why not pets?

6. A multi hit skill, again same reason as above. Weapons should not be the only source of multi hit for a dedicated bm.

7. Epic skill that provides up to 10% additional haste.

These ideas would open up more whip variance other than kok (which people use purely for the haste to get back to old speeds) and LoD (dat multi hit doe) and have actual builds of bms
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:20 PM   #2
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I like these ideas, and I agree that not all of them should be implemented since that would basically put bm's a top of everyone again.

Now on top of what I said, bms aren't that bad still due to stuns, I don't think anyone stuns as much as bms which proves to be great way to kill any caster even almighty DoT/regeners without bonus. (I'm aware of stoic, but it always get shattered so yeah).

But basically yes, I like these ideas, seem reasonbly thought of and I hope some of them get implemented
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:33 PM   #3
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i dont play as a BM and dont really support buffing them to the top again as you said, but i cant see why accruracy skill and possibly and even double attack would be too bad and i do sorta support it
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:34 PM   #4
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I have to agree with many points on this. Since the stalking skill was fixed (as it rightly should have been) BM's haven fallen away from popularity. Not only was your damage output lowered, but so was your ability to heal from damage.
Your ideas of how to change and/or fix the current BM situation are quite interesting. Option 1 would be interesting to see. Slightly lower max damage/heals for slightly faster ones would be a fair trade off. I fully support this idea as it would bring more variance into builds. Option 2 I'm slightly confused about. Your idea would increase the melee damage of whips but not pets correct? But wouldn't it also increase all melee dps as well? Option 3 I don't fully support as at least some whips do already have a pet haste proc on them. Maybe that could just be rolled into your number 7 idea of an epic pet haste skill. If so I'd support that. Options 5 and 6 I feel are not needed but would be nice. We already have the option of running 2 Lick of Death's and a Thraki which both give multi hit chances and respective chances to hit.

All in all I do feel that some changes are need but by no means push bm's back to top.

You did hit on a fairly good point though. Our ability to survive damage and/or heal from damage comes from a few choices. There is vamp, heal gems, regen, or pet heals. As it stands in PvE a mixture of vamps and pet heals should be enough to keep any BM with decent defense skills alive. But in PvP it is another story. With your pet hits being lower due to increasing amounts of mitigation your vamps are lowered drastically which makes you rely heavier on one of the other options. If you try to rely heavier on pet heals you have to sacrifice your rabid auras which drastically lower your damage. If you want to use heal gems you have to alter your stats to be able to cast multiple heal gems which take away from (most likely) either Melee stats or Defense stats. Having to do that would also lower your ability to be competitive in PvP. If you want to run regen effectively then you would DEFINITELY screw your dps as Timmies are obviously not an attacking pet. Just my 2 cents.

tl;dr
I agree. Some small changes would be more than welcome
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:42 PM   #5
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Yes option 2 would increase melee dps by utilizing pet crits. It would be a skill that could be used by all classes so it would not put bm too far ahead without dragging others with them

Stun lock is real with bm but as you said it can be countered with a stoic. In this arena I have seen at least 1 stoic on each side of the field, up to having 2 on 1 person and a few lower ranks scattered in the pouch. Yes is can be shattered but it can be redrawn just as easily if you have a few in your pouch. I cannot say how many times I pull a split shaft when i am deft dotting and I have 4 in my pouch. I can almost fully maintain the 10s aura from deft drawing alone.
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:46 PM   #6
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First of all we should fix pure DD casters in pvp. Dot is too obvious choice now.

With stunlock resists and drains in pvp DD only works in pve low/mid zones.

I would say it's priority if it comes to fixing builds.

BM's are still good both pve and pvp.
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:57 PM   #7
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Pure DD casters in terms of what? With regen you have decent survivability but I do agree resists can be an issue since you cannot simply stack cnc like a dotter. With the pre and mre runes though you have a near limitless pool to cast from so at that point resists become moot. At lower levels I can see the issue though
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Old 02-17-2015, 07:02 PM   #8
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in my experience while having 2 bm's the delay is too much or the damage is not high enough , an epic skill would not cut it i fear cause many would just reroll, i did not reroll cause i like having some accounts i do not have to cast with.

With that said i think only 5% more speed from a gem or rune would be sufficient to put the bm back on the charts as a bit better than mediocre build.

BM's can not kill fast , can not regen enough in higher areas , noted my bm's are not that great in terms of exp but have skills where they need it and a dedicated suit. Give DS gp that 5% proc perhaps?
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Old 02-17-2015, 07:03 PM   #9
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I support all of the above... mostly pet haste increase and accuracy + multi hits

P.S Give Legendary skill
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Broke 4k pet crit :O Buff BM nao!

Last edited by Darklords; 02-17-2015 at 08:35 PM.. Reason: not specifing what i support
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BM class needs some luv
Old 02-17-2015, 08:03 PM   #10
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Default BM class needs some luv

ya BM need some help. i previously used my BM to tank higher areas to help my other toons get quests. the stalking fix made not not possible any more. i understand the skill needed fixed by it nerfed the build far to much. i took a vamp class toon equipped 2 timmies and now it tanks for the BM class toon..it is just sad..I dont not know what the answer is but the point of all other classes throwing on 2 timmies and beating up a beast master is very real... the beast master needs damage pets for dps so timmies are not an option. some kind of "fix" is needed.

just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-17-2015, 08:18 PM   #11
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Yes Brogue you can use stoic, BUT if they shatter it and keep you stunlocked you don't get to draw new one if you remain stunlocked, and I do mean actual stunlock like literally can't pull a single gem or if you manage to pull one it's not neccesarly another stoic
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:15 PM   #12
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I support all of these recommendations. Some more than others but all in all they all sound reasonable. From my perspective, I am not speaking for anyone else, since the Stalking fix BMs have dropped considerably in survivability. Rogue brought up a good point with Timmies. All other builds can take advantage of Timmies while BMs have to rely on damage from pets so they can't enjoy the regen procs that Timmies provide.

If anyone needs proof, outside of arena, check the highest solo boss kills. That explains survivability to the " T ". A BM is not on the list until #12. Since BMs can not use Timmies for survivability I rate the order of classes from weakest to strongest as: BM, Melee, Archer, Caster. Now I am not suggesting that BMs be taken to the top of the food chain but if you could give the class a little boost that would be great.
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaaa View Post
Yes Brogue you can use stoic, BUT if they shatter it and keep you stunlocked you don't get to draw new one if you remain stunlocked, and I do mean actual stunlock like literally can't pull a single gem or if you manage to pull one it's not neccesarly another stoic
I have never seen anyone who hasn't enchanted agi and dex to 50 be stunlocked. yes, you do sometimes end up with a few stuns in a row, but that's bound to happen with thousands of pvp fights and millions of hits.

Surely you remember our test where you yourself claimed there were gaps in the stuns.

This is with 10 delay crushers (before the unnecessary nerf), aliangel BPs, badger, etc.

In case you don't, here's the link. You can see the stun gaps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolF7SDCkUw
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.

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Old 02-17-2015, 11:16 PM   #14
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Idea from before (basic idea is pets help melee damage)

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I think the best way to fix melee/bms is a skill that makes pet damage/melee damage benefit each other. Items/gems should not be fixes, as we've seen with the ridiculous arrow of regenerf.

BM/Melee Skill Thingy
This skill grants up to 7% chance (14% with 100 Stalking) to immediately perform a melee attack when a pet of yours deals critical damage.

But, if Glitch wants to buff using items, here's my suggestion:
Whip of Bleeding
Dmg: 38-150
Delay: 29
When this whip strikes a target, that target receives a bleed equal in damage to 12.5% of its current bleeds.
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The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 02-18-2015, 04:58 AM   #15
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Personally I'd like to see a pet with a gold proc.. can be used by all classes - but should still remain mostly beneficial to them.

In terms of PvP BM's still actually have amazing potential with the Hellkok whips..But at huuuuuuge expense..and even then they are mediocre at best..


Nice burst damage, absurdly slow.. leaves a DoT which they cant rupture themselves.. the gems that can are extremely underpowered so noone uses them

Heals are also mediocre at best, and regen is spanked on them due to no regen pet with decent damage..

The real trouble I see with them is their basic mechanics.
I agreed with solution number 7 and have also suggested it myself a few weeks back..
A multi-attack chance for pets could really help aswell (also helps bring their pvp back to par after the stalking fix..) perfect t3 skill..
Another more PvP oriented fix would be to add a pet with lowered regen/mit and better damage.. or simply make timmy damage alittle more viable.. they only people who benefit from timmys being so weak is everyone except BM's.. even if they had the same damage as a yeti or a polar bear even..

theres my 2 cents.
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Old 02-18-2015, 05:00 AM   #16
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Also - Buff everyones crit chance to 140... not fair only casters get it..
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Old 02-18-2015, 03:21 PM   #17
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The thing that bm's had going for them vs regeners was the fact that they could stack up bleeds fast enough to counter it. With the doubled delay now in place they can easily heal up between pet hits. The game was changed around the fact that bm's were thought to be working as intended. That may be why timmy is a huge 75% to regen and 10% mitigation. But since they were fixed should they not get buffed a little to get competitive vs the regen meta?
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Old 02-18-2015, 03:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
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That may be why timmy is a huge 75% to regen and 15% mitigation.

10%*
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Old 02-18-2015, 06:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadakris View Post
Also - Buff everyones crit chance to 140... not fair only casters get it..
The issue with the crit chance:

Weapon/Pet/Bow/Staff go to 140, so the damage from those sources isn't reduced by high level PvE encounters.

DD Damage is reduced, and Glitchless did not want to allow people to level Red/Black/White/Green/Blue/Grey to 140 because then the costs of casting all gems, DD and DoT would be greatly reduced even in PvP (as energy is due to 140 staves).

The problem is, the crit chance also gives a big PvP bonus whereas 140 in weapon skills do not. 140 weapon skills simply allow you not to lose damage when fighting high level PvE. 140 in Destruction gives you extra DPS in all situations.

So his alternative to giving a huge buff to casters at all enemy levels was to give a different buff to casters at all enemy levels. -_-

I don't know if allowing 140 Critical Strike is the right answer though.

Personally I'd like to see 140 Smash/Slice and Dice/Puncture so we get more difference between melee weapon types.
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If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:02 PM   #20
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I support the idea of buffing bms with one of these ideas so that they my become a reasonable build option with this meta.
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