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Early Game & Beastmasters
Old 07-01-2011, 11:29 AM   #1
Nurvus
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Default Early Game & Beastmasters

What this thread is NOT about:
- Class Balance
- End Game
- Overskilled Characters

What this thread IS about:
- Beastmaster gameplay from 0 to 9 Petmanship.
- Normal leveling experience
- New Players

Suggestion - doesn't affect game balance:
- Create a Petmanship (1) Pet (i.e: Ant, Bee)
Note: Something really weak, like 100 in all stats, 1-2 damage, 50 delay and Poor Accuracy.

This way, much like any starting class, the Beastmaster:
- gets a few trophies and gold like told to by the Tutorial,
- invests the first 1500 trophy experience into his most important skill (Petmanship),
- and gets his first Pet (like others might get their first Gem, Shield or Bow)

Why?
Beastmasters are the only Class in the game that is unable to play according to its concept - not even use its Class Ability - for a good while; the only Class in the game that has to endure some meaningful early game, theme-related gameplay disadvantages:

Base concepts:
- Beastmaster is themed around pets
- You can't use your Class Ability without a pet
- You can't fully use your Class Ability without 2 pets
- Pets are boosted by Whips
- Whips are inferior to normal Slashers

All that would be fine... except:
- First pet available requires 10 petmanship
- All beastmastery skills other than Whips are useless until you have a pet
- Most beastmastery skills don't work without at least a whip or a whip on the same side of the pet

This means a new player going for Beast Master usually either:
- Invests in the skills he plans to use, equipping Whip and being inferior to any other class in early game;
- or wastes experience in skills (like Staves or Slasher) they will drop once they get a pet (changing to Whips).

Neither of the above choices are forced upon other classes.
---
Conclusion:
Starting experience is a decisive factor in hooking a potential new player to the game.
Preventing a player from having even the smallest glimpse at the fundamental theme of a Beastmaster in early game is not good by any standard.

If a 0-2 Petmanship Pet is added to the game, all classes will finally have a fair start.

Last edited by Nurvus; 07-04-2011 at 10:17 AM..
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:38 AM   #2
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No- BM is the easiest and fastest thing in the game to build,and stupidly OP at higher levels.
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:01 PM   #3
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Don't bring end game balance to this thread - it's completely irrelevant.

Nothing makes it okay for a class to be OP.
Being awful at start is certainly not an acceptable compensation for being OP at end game - that is a ridiculous design in any game.

So if Beastmasters are OP then that should be addressed, but it's a completely different subject, and doesn't interact in any way with the contents of my suggestion.

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Old 07-01-2011, 12:57 PM   #4
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You think BMs are awful to start? Try building anything else. I say again,a BM is the easiest thing in the game to build EVEN FROM THE START. I have a level 7 using a whip and he kills as fast as he did with slashers...and takes way less damage.
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:14 PM   #5
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Casters suck to start as a first character.. alot worse than BMs
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadakris View Post
Casters suck to start as a first character.. alot worse than BMs
true.
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Old 07-01-2011, 03:01 PM   #7
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I went from being a BM to a caster (rerolled), BM's are the easiest class to build and have very little disadvantages so long as you build them right, and as for casters they just suck until like lvl 40+ no matter how you build them.
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:19 PM   #8
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All replies to this thread have been on the basis of people that know the game very well, or could just go paid on a new toon, and chuck a stack of trophies into getting their BM decent from the start.
Look at it from the point of a totally new player, who isn't paid, doesn't have boon, or a massive main to feed trophies. Suddenly, BMs are pretty slow to level.
Whips do poor damage compared to slashers (the 37 whip has virtually identical DPS to the 28 slasher, and the 74 whip is pretty close to the 52), you don't get ANY CA until petmanship 10, and only half your CA until petmanship 30.

Yes, after level 40, when Fire and Ice comes in, BMs are very nice and easy to play.
But to everyone who says they are so OP, where are all the BM level 85 farmers ?
Where are all the people rerolling from caster/crusher to BM, if it's so massively OP ?
Where are the teams of 3 BMs taking down the arena, and ranked first ?
Where are the BMs killing in under 10 seconds in N lake ?

BMs, OP ? really ?

I support the idea of this thread, for 1 or 2 very weak pets (petmanship 1 and 6, for example)
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeth View Post
All replies to this thread have been on the basis of people that know the game very well, or could just go paid on a new toon, and chuck a stack of trophies into getting their BM decent from the start.
Look at it from the point of a totally new player, who isn't paid, doesn't have boon, or a massive main to feed trophies. Suddenly, BMs are pretty slow to level.
Whips do poor damage compared to slashers (the 37 whip has virtually identical DPS to the 28 slasher, and the 74 whip is pretty close to the 52), you don't get ANY CA until petmanship 10, and only half your CA until petmanship 30.

Yes, after level 40, when Fire and Ice comes in, BMs are very nice and easy to play.
But to everyone who says they are so OP, where are all the BM level 85 farmers ?
Where are all the people rerolling from caster/crusher to BM, if it's so massively OP ?
Where are the teams of 3 BMs taking down the arena, and ranked first ?
Where are the BMs killing in under 10 seconds in N lake ?

BMs, OP ? really ?

I support the idea of this thread, for 1 or 2 very weak pets (petmanship 1 and 6, for example)
I agree with just about everything you said.
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:43 PM   #10
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I support the idea of the original post. a lv 1 or 2 pet for BM's... great arguments were made and I also think this would additionally 'hold' some of the lower level players that might leave due to frustration or boredom.
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadakris View Post
Casters suck to start as a first character.. alot worse than BMs
Couldn't disagree more.
As a caster, whether you focus on damage over time or direct damage, you just desintegrate everything from early on, unless you really build your caster very... poorly.

You can argue that if you are willing to feed a new toon with low level epics, it gives melees and archers a small headstart over casters, but that's it.
And BMs are screwed on all accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeth View Post
All replies to this thread have been on the basis of people that know the game very well, or could just go paid on a new toon, and chuck a stack of trophies into getting their BM decent from the start.
Look at it from the point of a totally new player, who isn't paid, doesn't have boon, or a massive main to feed trophies. Suddenly, BMs are pretty slow to level.
Whips do poor damage compared to slashers (the 37 whip has virtually identical DPS to the 28 slasher, and the 74 whip is pretty close to the 52), you don't get ANY CA until petmanship 10, and only half your CA until petmanship 30.

Yes, after level 40, when Fire and Ice comes in, BMs are very nice and easy to play.
But to everyone who says they are so OP, where are all the BM level 85 farmers ?
Where are all the people rerolling from caster/crusher to BM, if it's so massively OP ?
Where are the teams of 3 BMs taking down the arena, and ranked first ?
Where are the BMs killing in under 10 seconds in N lake ?

BMs, OP ? really ?

I support the idea of this thread, for 1 or 2 very weak pets (petmanship 1 and 6, for example)
Exactly this.
And furthermore, most replies to this thread give the idea that the posters hate BM players so much that new BM players should be punished for it.

Funny enough, what the game shows is that casters are on the top of the food chain.

Last edited by Nurvus; 07-02-2011 at 08:11 AM..
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
Funny enough, what the game shows is that casters are on the top of the food chain.
based on this, you know nothing and any other comment you make in this thread, is null and void.
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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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Old 07-02-2011, 10:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smashbros View Post
based on this, you know nothing and any other comment you make in this thread, is null and void.
Won't even comment on how childish that is...
...after I mentioned in the first post that this thread is -not- about who's the strongest, why do you think I contradicted myself by posting something about strength? It's called sarcasm, and you went for the bait like you haven't eaten for a long time.
You even bothered to waste your time posting solely to make that meaningless comment.

It's irrelevant who's stronger.
My point is precicely that everyone bitches and whines about who's strongest.
Whoever beat you hardest is OP and should be nerfed.

If you don't like reading nor appreciate sarcasm, why post in a forum?
---

This thread is about putting something in the game that only affects Lv1 to Lv10 gameplay, and very slightly so.

I would love to see a constructive negative reply.
Instead, all of the negative replies here were whines about how mid-range BMs are so easy to level; how high end BMs are so OP; and ultimately how low end BMs deserve to suck as a punishment.

- Those who believe BMs or Casters or Melees or Archers are OP at some point in the game, go and create a thread to discuss it.
- Those who believe Casters are too weak in early game, go and create a thread to discuss it.

This thread is about the early game of Beastmasters, and how they are fundamentally unable to do anything with their class ability or bonuses until they get 10 Petmanship and a Ship Rat.

This thread is about how a player that starts a Beastmaster doesn't even have the slightest glimpse at what a Beastmaster is.

This thread is about how an easily fixable, mediocre early Beastmaster gameplay can end up turning off otherwise potential paying players.

Period.

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Old 07-02-2011, 05:38 PM   #14
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want to know the reason that people are against this?? cause of the way you worded it and wrote it.

if you had simply wrote something like:

A pet around level 1-2 so that new players have a pet to use, and can work with the BM class earlier aswell as get to see a dif side of the game early on.

im sure most WOULD of supported it.

you ask how i know?? its cause ive suggested it before, so has others.

you getting all uptight about it all, cause you go on some long arse post complaining about crap being not strong enough early in the game did not help.

fact of the matter is this:

BM are plenty strong at lower levels (10+) IF they level their skills. yes, whips suck, whips suck at end game, a whip user is in it SOLELY for the pet damage. the skills all give bonus to this.

your complaint, is the same as those complaining archers fail, its simply cause YOU are not building it right.

but yes, there should be a pet before level 10, so that new players get to see what that is like.

is it going to happen?? prob not. why?? cause an artist would then need to draw up a pet, and it would have to get added to the game. and im sure that alot of people would agree, that glitch could better spend time, money and effort on other parts of the game, that would benefit more people.
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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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We are well aware of the over-dramatic reactions to game changes in an effort to skew perception. It doesn't work, just makes them look like cry babies.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:22 PM   #15
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smash be right
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:04 PM   #16
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We shouldn't be discussing whether or not Nurvus is a clueless bumbling idiot. We should be discussing why it requires level 10 for a certain class to unlock their main damage dealing weapon and their half of their special ability, and level 30 to unlock 100% of their special ability.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:37 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
We shouldn't be discussing whether or not Nurvus is a clueless bumbling idiot. We should be discussing why it requires level 10 for a certain class to unlock their main damage dealing weapon and their half of their special ability, and level 30 to unlock 100% of their special ability.
cause making it like that stops it from dominating every aspect from lvl 1 till cap.

yes, other classes are better at somethings, but certain classes are better are certain things.

a weapon master, you could argue is a master of weapons, therefore why shouldnt they get a bonus to archery? why do they have to wait till lvl 20 to use 2 weapons??

its cause thats how the game is, to make it fair on everyone.
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However you want to spin it, buddy. This patch was specifically designed to somehow screw you over.

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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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We are well aware of the over-dramatic reactions to game changes in an effort to skew perception. It doesn't work, just makes them look like cry babies.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:30 AM   #18
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I'm not sure you even bothered reading the first post properly, Smash.

If you read your own last 2 posts, you're saying that:
- "BM is plenty good at 10+ if you skill properly." Who the hell said otherwise? I'm suggesting a pet for 1 petmanship. Guess wich level range I'm talking about, Einstein.
- "Whips suck but that is compensated because they boost pets." No one's complaining about whips... only at the fact that the pets, wich they boost, can't be used until you got 10 petmanship, neither the BM class bonuses or class ability.
- "cause making it like that stops it from dominating every aspect from lvl 1 till cap." Go discuss that crap in another damn thread. Name it "BMs are OP" and discuss it there.

In case you missed it the first 3 times:
A) If there are classes weaker or better than others in mid or end game, go make a thread about those classes and explain it. Don't bring that trash to this thread.
B) Read A) again.
C) Being OP at end game is NOT justified by being weak at early game. Fix the BM's OP'ness at end game, fix the the BM's bleak early game, but don't find excuses to keep one or the other.
D) Read A) again.
E) Read the quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roeth View Post
All replies to this thread have been on the basis of people that know the game very well, or could just go paid on a new toon, and chuck a stack of trophies into getting their BM decent from the start.
Look at it from the point of a totally new player, who isn't paid, doesn't have boon, or a massive main to feed trophies. Suddenly, BMs are pretty slow to level.
Whips do poor damage compared to slashers (the 37 whip has virtually identical DPS to the 28 slasher, and the 74 whip is pretty close to the 52), you don't get ANY CA until petmanship 10, and only half your CA until petmanship 30.

Yes, after level 40, when Fire and Ice comes in, BMs are very nice and easy to play.
But to everyone who says they are so OP, where are all the BM level 85 farmers ?
Where are all the people rerolling from caster/crusher to BM, if it's so massively OP ?
Where are the teams of 3 BMs taking down the arena, and ranked first ?
Where are the BMs killing in under 10 seconds in N lake ?

BMs, OP ? really ?

I support the idea of this thread, for 1 or 2 very weak pets (petmanship 1 and 6, for example)

Last edited by Nurvus; 07-03-2011 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 07-03-2011, 05:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurvus View Post
C) Being OP at end game is NOT justified by being weak at early game. Fix the BM's OP'ness at end game, fix the the BM's bleak early game, but don't find excuses to keep one or the other.
actually it does.

you disagree, obviously.

but hey, you dont wanna discuss this rationally, you wanna yell and spew **** and attempt to insult people.

soo ill leave you with 2 things:

1) your a fool

2) ever think that there is a reason there isnt a pet below level 10, as obviously this isnt the first time its been bought up??

just think about it.
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However you want to spin it, buddy. This patch was specifically designed to somehow screw you over.

Quote:
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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
We are well aware of the over-dramatic reactions to game changes in an effort to skew perception. It doesn't work, just makes them look like cry babies.
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Old 07-03-2011, 06:13 PM   #20
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First, you're the one who adamantly skips and ignores others' logic and defends your own with 0 arguments - you just state facts that don't add up.

And I'm not talking just about me. You ignored what Huggles and Roeth wrote completely.

Apparently nothing anyone says would ever change your mind, wich is fine, but also kind of odd, because for someone who said to have once suggested this, you sure changed your mind.
---
There are only two possible outcomes to this discussion:
a) you believe that it's fine for BMs to be overpowered as long as they suck from 0 to 9 Petmanship.
b) you agree with everything I suggested in this thread, but won't admit it.

Yes, it's that simple!
Because if you agree with a), then that means that to you, it doesn't matter how overpowered a class is, as long as it has a penalty during leveling, like requiring 2x the amount of experience, or doing half damage until lv50.

I'm not sure who in their right minds would find that fair, but hey, I've been wrong before!

It means that to you, sucking at the first half of leveling is a welcome and completely legitimate class characteristic and part of an exciting gameplay.

If you don't agree with a), however, you automatically agree with b).

---

To be honest, I don't think you've tried to actually participate in this thread's discussion.
I think you're just trying to prove me wrong or something, even though I don't know what for.
You give no valid arguments against including a 1 Petmanship pet into the game.
All you do is derail this thread into a problem that has nothing to do with it: Class Balance.

If you're not gonna read properly what's below, don't even waste your time.

Class Balance is an issue Jeff should be - and I'm sure he is - constantly addressing.
It has nothing to do with how lame a class is in the first 9 levels.

And I can kill just as fast with any class before I get 10 Petmanship - that's not the point at all!

The point is that to do that I will have to invest in skills, weapons and gems that have nothing to do with a Beastmaster - skills, weapons and gems that I will be ignoring once I get 10 Petmanship and a Ship Rat.

If I instead choose to actually play with Whips before I have a pet, then I'm gimping myself - no other class has this issue, and no class needs to have this issue.

Conclusion: If BM is OP, nerf BMs/buff other classes as needed to make it balanced.
And fix the starter experience for BM class - not in terms of power, but in terms of how well the BM theme is represented to a new player.


PS: I bet you play a BM, feel OP, enjoy that feeling, want to remain OP at all costs, don't mind new players suffering for it and as such will refuse any suggestion that might lead to nerfing BMs.

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