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Old 03-05-2013, 12:48 AM   #21
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There is only one archer in the top 10 in arena, this a proof that archers are in need of a buff to compete with other in high end pvp.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:10 AM   #22
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Not agreeing to asking for an archer buff and seeing as how my partner (Gwen) is severely outdated by both equips and experience I don't have much of a right to give an input, I would like to see some updates possibly in the future perhaps for bow users who DON'T use a shield and who don't grow 2 sets of extra arms to handle whips.

Seems to me that shield-using and whip-using bow users are fantastic in both pvp and pve; however, the game seems to be almost forcing bow users into that generic "whip and shield" using category.

-Just my two cents.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:08 AM   #23
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bow users are forced to be hybrid builds, but if use whips you get penalized, if use shield penalized again, using dots for bladow works only with poson- burst, both mana spending in death, and same amount mana/energy if use antigenesis, and canot cut spend rate for casting like casters when use staff, on top of that you cant block dots, you cant vengeful on dots and in fight with any dcent tank you get more dmg back from reflective shield than you do to oponent

am i miss something......
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:34 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solopixy View Post
bow users are forced to be hybrid builds, but if use whips you get penalized, if use shield penalized again, using dots for bladow works only with poson- burst, both mana spending in death, and same amount mana/energy if use antigenesis, and canot cut spend rate for casting like casters when use staff, on top of that you cant block dots, you cant vengeful on dots and in fight with any dcent tank you get more dmg back from reflective shield than you do to oponent

am i miss something......
alot it seems, but we will leave that for you to find out.
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However you want to spin it, buddy. This patch was specifically designed to somehow screw you over.

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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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We are well aware of the over-dramatic reactions to game changes in an effort to skew perception. It doesn't work, just makes them look like cry babies.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:14 AM   #25
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U can take a look here for what kind of improvments need archers to be equal in 1vs1 against melee:
http://forums.nodiatis.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=15098
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:32 AM   #26
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Oh my goodness the archer can't take everyone and anything :O must be a mistake GLITCH GEEF BUFF. Then geef the casters buffs when the archers can take them and then buff the archers again and then back to the casters then back to the archers.....oh wait thats not how games are suppose to work. It's called balance. One class should not be able to win out vs every other class there is or guess what there will be only one class. I know how this might be confusing to you but believe me balance is more fun in the game then running around stomping everything in the ground.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:47 PM   #27
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I can't believe nobody caught the sarcasm about One With Nature needing to be a 90% resist and the need for an anti-parry skill when archers can't be parried anyhow.
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #28
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everything i have posted here is sarcastic, but everyone is so hardcore serious i couldn't stop lol

if there is one thing archers need it is textual notification of an arrowrain!
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by >.> View Post
everything i have posted here is sarcastic, but everyone is so hardcore serious i couldn't stop lol

if there is one thing archers need it is textual notification of an arrowrain!
that ill support lol.
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However you want to spin it, buddy. This patch was specifically designed to somehow screw you over.

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Tell that to the crybaby archers
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We are well aware of the over-dramatic reactions to game changes in an effort to skew perception. It doesn't work, just makes them look like cry babies.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:37 PM   #30
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Alot of people tend to miss the slight factors that are prohibiting archers from being "good" without using a whip and/or shield.

I was always lead to believe it was the lack of universal skills.. (blinding arrow for example, seems to be a joke in terms of PvE). Arrow Rain also has no effect PvE. They seriously lack defensive skills (One with Nature was a great addition to them, slightly overpowered IMO)

But they have only one skill that provides a chance to dodge while autoshooting, and it doesn't have a secondary buff like melee toon get (Dual Parry+Mirrored Blade) and that even castersgain slight benefits from.

They also do not have a shield busting skill, which yet again almost all other types of builds get.. (Strikethrough and Raze)
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:39 PM   #31
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So theoretically they lack defense and offensive abilities naturally.

A slight accuracy boost may be all they need to be a contender in PvP with opposing skill sets.


Not to mention they kinda lack a true "damage boosting" skill. In terms of PvP exploit weakness, is actually a major weakness as you have to land 25 shots to gain its full bonus.
Which by then, you have activated Vengeance on a Melee toon (yet another type of damage boost ranged users do not have, a boost based on their own HP missing)

So you see, a ranged user isn't so much meant to be a "solo toon" in my eyes. Unless you hybridize, I personally use whips with my archer.. mostly because he doesn't have grinder and it allows me to end combat with full HP always therefore saving rested time.

I haven't explored too much into a shield build and refuse to even spend money to upgrade his bowset simply because I plan to reroll the toon.. Because in order for them to be a good solo toon, you have to spend absurd amounts of cash (which all classes do, but I don't see a don't see a reason to do it on a toon with such bad learning skills)..


But this is something most people seem to not realize about archers. There are so many legendary items that can make certain builds 100% better.

For starters, the Thraki's bow provides 15% higher chance to land attacks. Which in itself makes up for their lack of natural accuracy skills.

Which effects can further be amplified with a Ranger's Revenge arrow. (Also helps with Hybridization if going for a BM type build)

Now you can even touch base with another part of hybridization which comes rather naturally to archers with items like the Hydra Fang Dagger to those who want to use DD's.. Or a Runed Flurry Sword which gives you an absurd amount of bonus accuracy AND chance to TRISHOT which is a natural showstopper, especially when you add the bonus from Thraki's Bow.

Last edited by Jadakris; 03-05-2013 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:02 PM   #32
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So let's continue into this abit further.

Need some bonus health skills and armor? Why not add a Cudgel of Unmoving. Which can almost instantly make up for the lack of HP and defensive stats. +50 Duration 300 AC, and 20% mitigation WITHOUT any sacrifice to damage.

Lick of Death adding bonuses to your pets, an hit% and tri%..


You beginning to see a pattern yet? The fact that you can basically do anything with archers is basically going unseen to the players eyes because 90% of them like Fior are too retarded to sit down and THINK about how to build a toon on their own.. let alone pinpoint the actual flaws in the ranged users builds.


Which in my eyes, is the lack of natural skills that effect accuracy and defense (to kiting obviously, as One with Nature is op)

Even if you were to add say 5% extra chance to trishot with the arrow rain skill of 100..
Slightly amplify the effectiveness of Blinding Arrow (IMO it is bugged as it stands cause I get hit all the time PvP and PvE when I blind)
And say even added an additional skill that granted upto 10% higher chance to kite. Which still only gives you a 30% chance to kite, which is turned into 15% vs two handed weapons. which is another part of rangers that is stupid as hell.. why should they get less of a chance to kite when no other classes get penalized versus twohanded weapons...

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Old 03-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #33
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Oh, and did I mention that there is no class that gives you a bonus % to kite? I have been asking that Tactican worked for kiting aswell for years now..

As it stand you can have 20% chance to kite. Yet melee users can have upto 60% chance to parry..
Parry20%, Dual Parry20%, Tactician15%, Dreadskull Swordbreaker+5%

You want to talk about unbalanced?

Last edited by Jadakris; 03-05-2013 at 07:24 PM..
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:23 PM   #34
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Support buffing skills that have no counters
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If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
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The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:34 PM   #35
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OK this is getting comical.

For those of you who are serious about "WTF ARCHERS ARE OP STFU" or "OMG NEED BUFF NAO" I would say this, as someone who has used archery on main account since beginning (though, thanks to plenty of time away, is by no means an OP archer):

Archers are jacks-of-all-trades at the moment. Nobody in Nod can put together uber-high weapon crits, cast gems, wield a shield, use pet/whip skills, and heal themselves all at the same time... except archers. But evaluated on each individual aspect, archers are generally not the best at any of these, be it uber-crits, gem-casting, tanking, healing, etc. In exchange for being a jack-of-everything, you tend to end up as the master of nothing.

Thanks to some current buffs (namely, OwN) the archer-tank option is pretty damn strong, though still not as good as a pure tank, unless it is specialized as an anti-caster tank. But everything else is... well it's solid. It's not bad at all. It's not OP, but it's hardly UP either. But to someone who wants to look at an expert at a particular skill and compare archer's ability to match up, ofc you look relatively UP, or to someone who is upset that archer can do what you do, plus do more that you can't, ofc archers seem OP. But I'll believe that archers are OP when you find a couple toons that are actually archer mains saying so, and can tell you as an archer that they aren't UP.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:41 PM   #36
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@ Jada:
A ranged attacked can not be parried. So parry becomes useless in a pvp encounter between melee and ranged. I agree that it gives melee's higher melee damage avoidance in pve settings (since all mobs are melee attackers).

Regarding the original points of this thread:

(1)
Ranged toons have the same defenses against dots that everyone else has plus one with nature. If there have to be additional defenses against dots, then they should be for everyone. Not just ranged toons.

(2)
Again ranged attacks can not be parried so if a strikethrough like skill were added, it would have to be for block only. Not really sure if such a skill is necessary though. Shield archers have greater dps than shield melee's.


Honestly though, I am sort of jaded about all of this. Every thread of this sort turns into a circus show. For example, people whine about pierce in one thread and then they come into a different thread about a different weapon type and troll others to stop whining. I personally don't think that pierce is underpowered but I am not trolling people that ask for pierce buffs.

Regardless, just add general skills that boost everyone. If you buff one weapon type, someone else will want a buff and it leads to a neverending cycle. The game is fine. Classes are sort of balanced. Some are better than others at certain things. It is the way it is.

Add skills that benefit all builds (if skills are to be added). I would like to see more agi based damage avoidance skills such as dodge (under protection) that all builds can use. There are lots of cnt based skills but only block, parry and kite rely on agi. A couple of agi based skills for everyone would be welcome.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:51 PM   #37
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@ Nibs

So basically your saying simply because you don't see a possible counter to certain skills that they should only be able to be 1/3 as effective? I'm also a tad bit concern on what skills you see "uncounterable" the only thing I can picture is Arrow Rain, which is only really strong if you manage to land a trishot at the same time.

@Raith

I'm going to have to disagree with you here on some points.. You say that only archers are able to heal, cast gems and do all this.. which isn't entirely true at all. For example, my BM Zampakris is full able to sustain healing gems (with mediocre regen stats, some balance gems, and ofcourse vamping runes and even gems).. which in any case if no different than an archer.. who still doesn't get a true "bonus" to healing itself, unless they are a ranger (which my bow user is)..

In reality, it is actually more beneficial/true statement for a slash based warrior. He can use a shield, deal massive melee crits, thanks to the healing bow be able to cast gems(heals) while using all of these benefits and actually be much more efficient than a ranged user.

I will however agree with you in terms of saying that thanks to OwN, they can make a very strong anti-caster tank. Namely a DoT counter which is much needed currently..
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #38
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@Conquer

I understand that they are not able to be parried, but that is also no reason to punish the archer build as a whole. Don't you agree that it would be slightly more fair that you change it so they are able to be parried rather than slapping them with 1/3 the the chance of their abilities to work?

And even then, I understand that there is a fine balance hence I used such small numbers in my "buff suggestions".. but in-terms of Ranged users versus tanks, a tank will deflect alot of the ranged users shots which is perfectly acceptable because as I said I understand the importance of counters.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:59 PM   #39
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The archers you can see in the top 10 arena are there because they have a very good tank.
Make 1vs1 arena and will not see any archer in Top 100 anymore.
Crushers, slashers or piercers have raised their weapons for only 13 skills in weaponry, while archers are 18 skills to raise and yet lose the pvp battles. I'm not talking buildings. Speak of equality confrontation in PvP competition, means equal skills and armor and weapons, including tokens. If an archer full lg compete with a full melee in normal armor and weapon, is possible to beat him. I say possible because still are question marks.
It is normal for any melee or caster do not want to have any archer buff wich may equalize or defeats in battle, and therefore will claim that it is well balanced proportion, that's because they always win in the competition against archers and do not want that to be changed.
Fact: 14k damage you can achieve a slasher/crusher epic lvl 99 2h weapon and attack speed wich is far superior to trishot archer with bow set lvl 99 epic, even if archer damage is much greater together (bow+arrow) than damage of 2h slash/crush epic lvl 99.

I ask you Otherwise, tell me an archer with bow set epic lvl 99 that has come to have damage, even trishot of 14k and has armor, even lg, but unmorphed? Even in Travelers way that damage is not possible for archers. While a crusher and 2h slasher can do that.
Miss can give both, archers and melee users, but melee attack speed is much faster.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:13 PM   #40
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Tbh Jada, I'd rather not have ranged shots be parry-able. I'm fine with the way it is at the moment.

Archers have higher avoidance in pvp settings against many build types (because parry does not work against ranged toons). And that makes sense (because archers are agile and avoiding damage is what they do). In pve settings, all creatures do melee damage and so melee toons have the advantage in terms of damage avoidance (greater chance to parry vs. kite chance). One with nature and blind evens it out though I suppose.

Blocking is one of the things that can be used by melee toons to increase avoidance against ranged toons. So, in a way, a strikethrough like skill for blocks would probably not be fair (since it is a reliable counter against ranged builds).

Honestly, if people want to ask for a buff for archery, then go ahead but I don't think that it is necessary. Look at the boss tops kill for example. Plenty of archers have soloed 101 and above. My archer has lots of room for improvement and can still farm well in gs, can tank and can fight in high lvl areas. Talk to some of the op'ed archers - they are probably happy with their builds.

And regarding what ripple said: Tanks are tanks. Everybody has trouble with them. Thats the point. Its not just a ranged thing. And dots are difficult for everyone too so if counters are to be added, they should be added for everyone.
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