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Old 08-21-2014, 04:49 PM   #21
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It's quite possible the bug existed before the New Years patch. We don't have a way to know other than the videos Huggles timed, which seem to indicate it did, at least for whip users.

There was no solution that would please everyone. Our choice has been to correct the mechanics of the skill to match the description, partially because it was so universally accepted and complained about by the player base that BMs were the far superior PvE solo farmers, and this bug helped us reconcile that perception with our mathematical projections. That is not the end of our actions, however. We have already buffed the Hellkok whip, the reason for buffing it and not the other whips is due to it being the only one that relies on pet damage as a high % of a BMs total damage - remember only your pets attack slower now, so only at component of damage has been reduced. At this point we do not believe that it has been buffed to the point that it should be chosen over all other LG whips for all situations. If that proves to be the case, we will buff the other LG whips.

We have also introduced a pet haste gem that is superior to melee and range haste equivalents.

These changes are not meant to bring a BM build exactly to its former status, of course, and that is because we have acknowledged the need to balance a BMs PvE abilities better with other builds. This is likely not the end of our changes to BMs either. They very likely will need a buff in PvP. BMs still have a lot of empty skill slots for us to add interesting abilities that they may now actually deserve, whereas before their further development was stifled by their own power.
As a bm myself I would love to see buffs, however I still think that melee lags behind and DOTs should be looked into before you go changing more things.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:32 PM   #22
NemesisKnight
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This doesn't make sense.

'Helkok relied more on the attack speed than other whips.' Helkok made for a bigger number on a singular attack. LoDs relied on a chance to add another attack to contribute more dps to that attack. Granted, there are other things that LoDs benefit, but mathematically, slowing down the LoD users pet attack reduced the overall dps and healing. So, yes, Helkoks relied on it more, but LoDs still got nerfed.

Second, I don't understand that if there is finally evidence that BM was unintentionally more powerful than other builds, and a 'fix' was implemented. Why reintroduce a narrow circumstance where they return to that more powerful performance and THEN say there will be further buffs to come.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but what exactly is the benchmark that is being used to judge relative build balance? It just seems like there isn't one other than 'feedback'. Why doesn't anyone every equip an alliangel sleeve? Why is there such a disproportionate number of players using a fraction of the classes and the same 3-4 equipment pieces out of the dozens available.

It's just not balanced. And, frankly, it's no wonder so many people get bored and always want more content.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:34 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by NemesisKnight View Post
This doesn't make sense.

'Helkok relied more on the attack speed than other whips.' Helkok made for a bigger number on a singular attack. LoDs relied on a chance to add another attack to contribute more dps to that attack. Granted, there are other things that LoDs benefit, but mathematically, slowing down the LoD users pet attack reduced the overall dps and healing. So, yes, Helkoks relied on it more, but LoDs still got nerfed.

Second, I don't understand that if there is finally evidence that BM was unintentionally more powerful than other builds, and a 'fix' was implemented. Why reintroduce a narrow circumstance where they return to that more powerful performance and THEN say there will be further buffs to come.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but what exactly is the benchmark that is being used to judge relative build balance? It just seems like there isn't one other than 'feedback'. Why doesn't anyone every equip an alliangel sleeve? Why is there such a disproportionate number of players using a fraction of the classes and the same 3-4 equipment pieces out of the dozens available.

It's just not balanced. And, frankly, it's no wonder so many people get bored and always want more content.
Hes saying that the Hel had boosted pet damage only where as Lods you can double attack with the whips as well or bow if you are using ranged.

Beet Da Brat
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by beetdabrat View Post
Hes saying that the Hel had boosted pet damage only where as Lods you can double attack with the whips as well or bow if you are using ranged.

Beet Da Brat
I accounted for that in the statement. Let's be honest, whip damage is a fraction of pet damage. And archers using whips are already penalized by added delay. Regardless...

DPS for a Helkok would be the whip attack, plus the damage of the pet modified by it's proc. Slow down the pets, you slow down the overall dps. True.

DPS for a LoD would be the whip attack or bow attack or gem. plus the damage of the pet. Slow down the pets, you slow down a component of the overall dps. Also true.

Here's the problem though. It's arbitrary. How much did, say, a t1 Helkok's overall dps drop with the fix. Does the 16% haste bring it back in line with what a t1 LoD got dropped to. or is it more or less. And does it set BM on par with other classes of similar skills and equipment.

Or, did enough people complain and so they got what they wanted?
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:05 PM   #25
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Also would like to add that we have been very impressed with the response of players to this patch. For the most part, the complaints have been fair and voiced without being overly abrasive.
Aw, shucks.

*gets all mushy*
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:43 PM   #26
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Also would like to add that we have been very impressed with the response of players to this patch. For the most part, the complaints have been fair and voiced without being overly abrasive. We acknowledge that it is entirely our fault that this bug existed in the first place, and do not expect anyone affected by it to be completely free from rage.
I love the way this was said <3
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whips not balanced any more
Old 08-26-2014, 07:17 PM   #27
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Thumbs down whips not balanced any more

my BM use to farm redwood in heroic with my other toon the Bm would tank I use lod and vampire whip. I cant survive there anymore my slower pets just do not heal me quick enough anymore. so the only solution is to get 2 helkok whips to bring the pet haste back up so I can heal fast enough to survive. I thought we was looking for balance and different builds now from my lizard brain point of view the helkok whip is the only answer. I welcome any feedback to change my point of view. I am not even considering the dps this is just from the healing point of view.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:02 PM   #28
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Good luck hitting redwood mobs when you are missing out on like 30% chance to hit
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:15 PM   #29
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I only have 1 lod so that's only 11% to hit and vamp whip is only 5% to hit. but again that is dps. my point is the pets heals on myself which are 100% using vac 5 aura not rabib. I am losing so much healing from slower pets.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by jadedsoul View Post
my BM use to farm redwood in heroic with my other toon the Bm would tank I use lod and vampire whip. I cant survive there anymore my slower pets just do not heal me quick enough anymore. so the only solution is to get 2 helkok whips to bring the pet haste back up so I can heal fast enough to survive. I thought we was looking for balance and different builds now from my lizard brain point of view the helkok whip is the only answer. I welcome any feedback to change my point of view. I am not even considering the dps this is just from the healing point of view.
might need to think about having your tank actually avoiding alot of damage rather than relying on pet heals/vamps to survive
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:13 AM   #31
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devil, you're saying "might want to change your build now that you can't heal" is hilarious. That is exactly his point.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:56 PM   #32
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he didn't mean necessarily change builds, agi and cnt exist for a reason. If anyone remembered what it was like before regen got buffed they should know as well. Since a bm relies(d) on pet heals to survive normally they did not incorporate much if any cnt or agi into their build which was devils point, get more cnt and agi and you won't have to clean up (heal) as much.

I can solo heroic redwood with full hp, you want to know why? I have defense stats, not regen. I do not need a gem to help me absorb damage, I just avoid it all together. Granted some hits land but my single whip and vamps can easily cover it.

The point is builds change, skills are added (in this case fixed), new top dogs are made overnight. It happened before and people got over it. It happened now and people will get over it. It WILL happen again and guess what...people will get over it. How about those casters (DD) that used to reign supreme. 4m PER gem with a 50 gem pouch (being lenient and only giving 1 pouch) 4*50 is 200m. That is 200m back when tc's were MUCH cheaper than they are now. It is so easy to just throw some money at the game and become OP now that it really isn't a gripe that you blissed X amount when 2 tc's is an arm. People have spent more in the past and also have gotten over it.

Yes it sucks that a skill was working improperly since its inception and it got fixed years later. Yes it sucks that some people blissed a lot to become the best of that build only to get shafted. Yes it sucks that you got a peer suggested "top" build only to get fixed after nearly finishing it. But this is an MMO top builds change constantly in the ever elusive search for perfect balance between all classes. BM will have their day again, but for now it is time for someone else to take the pole position.




Side note: Yes I was affected by the patch, after all I was a bm/archer build with lg pets (1 t2) and an lg whip. I blissed for the resins of my pets yet do you see me claiming that i have been slighted beyond all belief by glitch? No, I adapted and moved on.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:18 AM   #33
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looking back at my post wasnt worded great (typical me) but what rogue said is my point exactly adding agi/cnt isnt such a huge change that you need to rebuild your toon also was only a suggestion if jadedsoul actually cares or not doesnt really bother me but rather than complain about having to change builds cause of a skill fix i was offering a suggestion to help a bm manage to tank heroic redwood
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:32 AM   #34
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This may sound seriously petty, but this fix just might bring me back.
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whips
Old 08-28-2014, 04:37 PM   #35
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Thumbs down whips

great feedback guys on how to "fix" my toon....but my point im trying to make (very poorly I guess) is why did the hellkok get pet haste added but no other whips did.....I get the point from a dps side that the kok is a weaker damage whip.....but this doesn't address the heal side of things now only the kok will heal you at the faster rate using vac5....my point is the whips are not balanced from the healing side.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:28 PM   #36
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great feedback guys on how to "fix" my toon....but my point im trying to make (very poorly I guess) is why did the hellkok get pet haste added but no other whips did.....I get the point from a dps side that the kok is a weaker damage whip.....but this doesn't address the heal side of things now only the kok will heal you at the faster rate using vac5....my point is the whips are not balanced from the healing side.
I'd have to agree with this as well. I don't understand why the hellkok was the only whip that got a pet haste buff. It'd make more sense to me to lower the delay on all whips by a certain percentage than give a pet haste buff if it was never intended in the first place.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:13 PM   #37
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Tale, it already does.
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The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:02 PM   #38
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it does not effect heals for multi attack
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Old 09-06-2014, 12:01 PM   #39
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I stand corrected.
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If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
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The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
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Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:39 PM   #40
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the more i think about this the more confused i am getting...if the hellkok had added % damage for pets to make up for less whip damage prior to stalking fix and the whips were basically considered somewhat equal. then why did only the hellkok get pet haste added...to me that means only the hellkok was awarded with a buff to offset the fix to stalking. which now mean that only hellkok users get the extra damage plus faster attack speed plus faster fire& ice heals and faster vamp heals.
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