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Old 03-01-2019, 09:48 PM   #61
Raidens
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Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
The plan is certainly not to make crushers in general more viable, since they are already the best melee in PvP. They are getting nerfed in general and specific LG crushers that nobody uses are being buffed. If you want to point to specific slashers and piercer LGs that you think need a buff, this is a good place and time to do it, though, yes.

Maybe buff staffs since they count as crushers and their procs are freaking ridiculous compared to alternatives. T3 spoil staff 5%unresist really? Or a t1 black edge 33%. Pretty crazy difference right there

Pretty sure I asked for staves to be buffed before, you didn't say anything about it not even asking because I now use them but I'm asking because staffs are virtually underwhelmed for their low prpcs. Ehone hit chance is just stupid. Pain and pleasure? Sure a low proc compared to say fang spear, and beguile and bowset... The enchantrix? Useless stave. Literally. Spoil staff again, the buff from the tiers is just so low compared to the alternative, and stave dots have no natural unresist and just stacking cnc doesn't help. Please consider buffing the staves since they are almost all underused and under performing

Last edited by Raidens; 03-02-2019 at 07:00 AM..
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Pale View Post
Melee needs a counter weapon for pet heals as flashies are a counter to melee regen in pvp.
Read the skill gravebond.
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:38 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Having had some time to think about this, I'd like to make some points. I know this won't change anything, but it should be said.

Some people are claiming that the top teams were using stuns. That's true. The top two teams used classes that have lower DPS in order to get more melee haste for their group (Paladin with Tomahammer). The 3rd place team used crushers as well (though they had a variety of options).

What they aren't talking about is the fact that the top team has the best healer in the game and the 3rd place team (who is 3rd rather than 2nd simply because they didn't have as much time to queue) has the second best healer in the game.

Two of the three top teams focused their strategy on minimising the impact of the enemy's healer. Kainith's team focused on stuns, using very fast whips and the moderately-fast Tomahammer/Debrainer combination to maximise stuns. I think I recall seeing quakes as well being used by Algamisu.

Demontamer's team also relied on stuns, but had multiple other fronts of attacks against the healers. We used 2H Weaponry, Dark Knight, and Badgers in order maximise the effect of Gravebound. We also used Reaper Aura to further decrease healing.

Excellence's team strategy varied a lot, even after their mid-season reroll. They did use bif and crushers to attempt to stun the healer. They were also using a doublecast crusher to get the most out of Daring's shield effect. The last few times we happened to fight them, Dawl was so thoroughly protected from stuns that they didn't bother to try biffing. I can't speak for them, but I'm guessing they thought it'd be easier to try to simply focus on the person who wasn't benefiting from FDA, less damage taken due to bif, and Daring shields.

Tsu's understanding of how Gravebound works was incorrect so I'm sure that may have factored into their strategy, but they were still thinking about how to mitigate heals by using 2H, DK, and Badgers, even though they did it the wrong way.


So, how did each team counter each of these teams' strategies, especially with regards to stunning the enemy and trying to hamstring the healers?

1. Our healer got Hogs. They're not great, but they can allow you to keep drawing gems until you get a stoic again. He also added more stoics to his pouch when he saw that stuns were an issue. In order to overcome the limit of 4 stoics that won't pop, he went Paladin secondary. This allowed him to have more stoics that don't have a chance to pop. (Rare Stoic 9 with Pally 2ndary will always remain in play because 90*1.14 is more than 100% chance to stay in play). We used Deft Draw 5 to allow all of us to redraw Stoics faster after a shatter/Quake.

Our DPS (if you can call Nibbles that) got a Kris. I had all my Piercing skills at 0 when I realised I would need that weapon, but I went for it and it did well. Again, having a class that allows non-LG stoics to remain in play was an asset here.

Nobody really bothered trying to stun Demontamer, but he had a few stoics anyhow.

2. Defense through superior offense. Can't get stunned if your enemy is stunned. Kainith's team stunned so much that stunning them was very difficult. Of course, they also ran stoics. Somehow running stoics seems to be a common theme when we talk about avoiding stuns. Hmm...

3. Again, stoics. Paladin healer so he's able to run more stoics that won't pop. They also levelled their anti-stun skills significantly, and it was a noticeable impediment to our ability to stun them.

_

Do you think the lower ranked teams went so far in their strategies as the top teams did? I doubt it.

_

Also, on the subject of the Debrainer and Dazes in general: I've been saying for a while that Alcoholic is the best healer class because consistency in any situation is what matters most. 99% immunity to dazes, i.e. you'll pretty much never heal the enemy and always heal the person on your team who needs it, is a big boon. I don't think any healers who were complaining about Debrainer went that route (even as a secondary class). They made the conscious choice to have more healing power but not be immune to daze, just as Kainith and Nibbles made the conscious decision to go Pally and sacrifice DPS. Whose fault is that?


____

Long story short: yes, the changes to crushers/debrainer are going to go ahead anyhow, but many of you are delusional if you think the top 3 teams are there simply because they stunned. Kainith's team had more strategy in their stun game than most teams had strategy in their team, and that was just one aspect of their team.

Just as it'd be wrong to buff staff DD without requiring them to make investments in areas other than just spamming DDs, it's wrong to buff someone without requiring them to make investments besides just doing what they're already doing.
bottom line: problem is not that crushers stun, problem is biff that allows same rate of stuns at 2 targets
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Old 03-02-2019, 03:33 AM   #64
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I changed my pouch plenty times i have 11 stoics , yet with 10 secs shatter i cant keep up. Tried diferent classes.... but yeah your only one trying nibbs. Hope you go .......
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Old 03-02-2019, 06:12 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfrym View Post
bottom line: problem is not that crushers stun, problem is biff that allows same rate of stuns at 2 targets
And you're who exactly to know what you're talking about?
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Old 03-02-2019, 07:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by ecnod View Post
I changed my pouch plenty times i have 11 stoics , yet with 10 secs shatter i cant keep up. Tried diferent classes.... but yeah your only one trying nibbs. Hope you go .......
10 second shatter

Caught us; we hack.
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If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
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The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:25 AM   #67
ecnod
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you do know hwat i meant....
i start fight with 3 stoics u insta shatter all 3 of them, if i am lucky that 1st gem i draw is stoic then i can cast for 30 secs if not i am stun locked for a LONG time then maybe i get to draw 1 max 2 gems before another stun lock comes in. now tell me how to counter that. please teach me oh nod god nr 2
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:42 AM   #68
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Baseless complaining is one thing because nobody like losing, but lying is absolutely unacceptable, Eggy.

How can you say you have 11 stoics in pouch when you are only using R10 and LGs, no R9 or lower?

https://youtu.be/Aq_Dey-a0Tc

For fun, here's a video where we don't even stun. We just beat you by having more DPS and better heals, like I've been saying.

https://youtu.be/R6-J_yvbuwA

Complaining about stuns but you keep 2 impervs in play when you run Drainproof staff? What a farce.


__

Glitch in the future you should really request proof from people who are claiming something is OP and needs to be nerfed in the same way you'd request it for a bug report. People are known to make things up accidentally, so why not on purpose as well, especially when it suits their ends?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:51 AM   #69
ecnod
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if i keep 2 imps only to have 5/6 gems in play to cast as fast as i can... your just huge ego like our other friend. but w.e i will bow to god.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:55 AM   #70
ecnod
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i dont care about loosing or winning. but being stunend whole fight isnt fun , all i am trying to say. and if u think noone but you try diferent things you just silly head.hope your win in this season will boost your ego dickhead!!!! happy i wont see any words from ay anymore ^^
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:02 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ecnod View Post
i dont care about loosing or winning. but being stunend whole fight isnt fun , all i am trying to say. and if u think noone but you try diferent things you just silly head.hope your win in this season will boost your ego dickhead!!!! happy i wont see any words from ay anymore ^^
careful eggy, you may get forum bant for that
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:11 AM   #72
Huggles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecnod View Post
i dont care about loosing or winning. but being stunend whole fight isnt fun , all i am trying to say. and if u think noone but you try diferent things you just silly head.hope your win in this season will boost your ego dickhead!!!! happy i wont see any words from ay anymore ^^
I'm just proving that you're lying about having 11 stoics, and that you're obviously running a suboptimal setup in general.

'stunned whole fight'

And you continue to lie. In one of those fights you were stunned 0% of the time. The other, under 10% of the time. But yeah, stunned whole fight.

Like I said Glitch, get video evidence before making changes because people lie like this all the time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:26 AM   #73
Raidens
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Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
I'm just proving that you're lying about having 11 stoics, and that you're obviously running a suboptimal setup in general.

'stunned whole fight'

And you continue to lie. In one of those fights you were stunned 0% of the time. The other, under 10% of the time. But yeah, stunned whole fight.

Like I said Glitch, get video evidence before making changes because people lie like this all the time.
well, disables when using biffs need a 1/2 nerf on duration, coz that is broken beyond belief. but yeah I agree
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:37 AM   #74
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Where there is competition - there is emotions both good and bad . Trash talks spice up the shows (although mostly all staged)

My opinion is that every class should be able to counter any other class with proper changes to gem/gears but not like one setup wins it all.

Crush miti/regen/disable builds are pretty much 98% superior to anything and hard to counter.

I would like to see variety of viable builds apart from cookie cut setups you can count on fingers of your left hand.

As noticed top 10 speaks for itself . Inspect and see what's broken.
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:28 AM   #75
Huggles
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Top 10:
1- Best Healer in game, One of best Tanks, and Support/DPS
2- DPS, Support/dps, and Staff DoT
3- Two of the best (melee) DPS, 2nd Best Healer in game
4- Tank, DPS, DPS/Support
5- Tank, Healer, DCDoT DPS
6- BM DPS, DCDD DPS, Top Tank
7- Tank/DPS, DPS, and Healer
8- DCDD DPS, Healer, Tank
9- BM DPS, BM DPS, Tank
10- DCDD DPS, Tank, Staff DoT DPS

Can't really say it's cookie cutter.

And Holyspirit, I pointed out 10 counters that people who were complaining about didn't use.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:40 PM   #76
ecnod
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the thing is .. its not all about your team silly. we fight more stun teams then just yours yet you have 2 vids . gratzs you go boy. and i do have r9 stoics.. i swap them in and out for anti daze/anti blinds depending what we face most. u caught me not using them THAT MATCH. but i bow before you all mighty nr2
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:56 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Top 10:
1- Best Healer in game, One of best Tanks, and Support/DPS
2- DPS, Support/dps, and Staff DoT
3- Two of the best (melee) DPS, 2nd Best Healer in game
#1 top healer ( possibly best, up for debate since healers are more about pouch, less about teirs), solid tank , and... a stun bot with samurai gear.

#2 tank/stun bot, tank/stun bot, doter at times staffer to stun and use quakes)

#3 dps/stunner dps/stunner, top healer

Notice a theme? stuns. for the last 5 or so odd seasons ALLLLLL the top toons/teams abused stuns.

Nibbs.. im sorry, stop being a moron. Stuns are overpowered as hell. Everyone can/will admit that (even someone who has abused them for multiple season to place top3). Your only defending them because its your only strength for your toon. Can run 100 indifference, t3 hogs, 400+ agi, and stoics... do they make a difference? 100%. BUT even running all of that, you can and will get stun locked consistently over a single fight.
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Old 03-02-2019, 03:48 PM   #78
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one of the main complaints here seem to be complaining about the uselessness of stoic gems. why not make cuddle procs not stack together? you can get a 1 minute shatter cd. between 3 toons that's still a shatter every 20 seconds. but a bit less spammy than one every 10 seconds. this would raise the function of stoics without making it impossible to keep up with shattering them
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Old 03-02-2019, 04:00 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Freakymagic View Post
#1 top healer ( possibly best, up for debate since healers are more about pouch, less about teirs), solid tank , and... a stun bot with samurai gear.

#2 tank/stun bot, tank/stun bot, doter at times staffer to stun and use quakes)

#3 dps/stunner dps/stunner, top healer

Notice a theme? stuns. for the last 5 or so odd seasons ALLLLLL the top toons/teams abused stuns.

Nibbs.. im sorry, stop being a moron. Stuns are overpowered as hell. Everyone can/will admit that (even someone who has abused them for multiple season to place top3). Your only defending them because its your only strength for your toon. Can run 100 indifference, t3 hogs, 400+ agi, and stoics... do they make a difference? 100%. BUT even running all of that, you can and will get stun locked consistently over a single fight.
As we've discussed in /c, we disagree on what stun lock means. With good counters, you'll be stunned maybe 10% of the fight. With bare-bones counters, maybe 20%. With no counters, probably more than half the fight. In my mind that kind of dynamic is fine, and not just because I use it.

And I usually didn't run Samurai on Nibs when I was trying to stun because I wanted more haste from BP and more hits from Thraki.

I see your point and I know I'm biased, but so are the people who lost to people who happened to stun. Like I said, I've accepted that the change is happening, but I dislike the dishonest methods used by the people who want something nerfed, like claiming to be stunned the entire fight when they're only stunned a few times.

Yes, being stunned even for a short time in bonus can be quite dangerous, but so is having your FDA/Angelic shattered in bonus. Everything is dangerous in bonus.
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Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
If they put a nice icon on you it's beneficial if they put a mean one on the other guy it's detrimental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitchless View Post
The player was banned for using an exploit repeatedly without reporting it. There's only 1 proper way to profit off an exploit: report it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Old Delay/(1+haste%) = New Delay

For slow effects, use the slow % but as a negative.

Just repeat for multiple effects.

DO NOT multiply by 1+slow% to get your new delay. 1*1.4 is not the same as 1/0.6 and your answer will be wrong.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:40 PM   #80
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And I usually didn't run Samurai on Nibs when I was trying to stun because I wanted more haste from BP and more hits from Thraki.

I see your point and I know I'm biased, but so are the people who lost to people who happened to stun. Like I said, I've accepted that the change is happening, but I dislike the dishonest methods used by the people who want something nerfed, like claiming to be stunned the entire fight when they're only stunned a few times.
Every fight you had samurai bow. tus had a t5 thraki, i had a t4 thraki.. BOTH of us used samurai bow every fight because it is far stronger then thraki in pvp.

And yes.. having 90+ epic + t3 hogs + t1 hog + 450+ agi made a difference... but still being locked to not doing anything while using every available counter to a build (yes stoics but but 30 sec shatter they are next to meaningless, have so many stoic's in your pouch you do no dmg or get consistently locked down by stuns.. lose/lose situation). Yes there are other options to not be stunned (example kriss) but again, not every option to available or logical to even try to use for every build.

And yes. losing fda or angelic can be detrimental late into bonus. However what gem did you and every other crush abusing team shatter with 30 sec cd? If the enemy had it up you shattered their stoics. Speaking as someone who has used it and fought it. Stuns are too strong.
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