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Exploit Weakness Revisited
Old 12-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #1
Thomas Jordan
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Default Exploit Weakness Revisited

Dear Glitchless:

It's been over 18 months since you last examined the exploit weakness skill for us. When you did, you concurred with our findings that it wasn't working properly, and corrected an error in your exploit weakness formula.

At the time, I had exploit weakness level 28, which should have produced a 7% increase in damage over long fights. My exploit weakness is currently 93, which should produce a 23.25% increase in damage over long fights. It isn't. I can't tell that it is producing much if any increase in damage over long fights.

I am using the Soulthief Bow, Demontooth Arrow, and Obliterator Quiver. My INT is 199, and my CNC is 657. I have a level 2 Demonskull Breastplate. I use a Broadhead Aura R5, along with a Swiftarrow Rune 4++ and Range Haste Aura R5.

I'm testing this in Goblin Swamp to get long fights. I have removed both pets to eliminate all non-bow damage. Both critical hits and mega critical hits can confuse the issue a bit, but it's possible to extrapolate both back to "raw" base damage, at least much of the time.

All of my raw hits are around 850 to 920, with an occasional really bad hit as low as 150 (which is why crits and mega crits can't totally be factored out). By the end of the fight I should be seeing raw damage up around 1,100 or more; I am not. My long fight damage doesn't appear to be increasing much if any from the 850 to 920 range.

I'm trying to record all my hit damage, but with a nice fast bow set, damage is still scrolling off the screen faster than I can record it all. Even given that I am missing some, I should still be seeing some higher level damage towards the end of the fight, which I am not seeing.

It is much easier for you to test this, since I presume you have a test bed in which you can fairly easily capture damage and save it into a data base for later analysis. If so, please run a few dozen test cases on exploit weakness in scenarios that last 25 or more bow hits. Perhaps I'm just having a run of bad luck.

I'll keep trying to record my damage, but so far I'm failing to record enough to render the analysis moot.

Thank you.

Added: Been playing in Redwood Forest, Endless Canyon and the Pit. Those are definitely long fights. I'm not seeing a damage increase over time in these areas either. I definitely do need my pets in these areas though, which makes recording data even more difficult.

TJ
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:04 PM   #2
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I have Exploit Weakness at lvl 85, I have not noticed any increase in dmg, that cud be concidered increasing via that skill. Thus didn't even level it any higher :/

As of recording any data, Ima too poofhead to do so. Besides also same issue as TJ, numbers rolling fast.
My dmg is erratic from 5.4k a shot down to ca 700dmg. Gotta trust my guts & eyes in this :/

Support in revision.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:18 PM   #3
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This should probably be looked at. Many archers say they haven't seen a substantial increase in damage.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:20 PM   #4
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Record your 1st hit maxes (your actual first hit, not the highest of the trishot), record your highest maxes after 25 shots landed. If your skill is high you'll see the difference over time. Everything we've tested indicate it is working perfectly. Vs. same creature using same gear etc, of course.

You can't rely on your senses to detect an increases from shot to shot. Even at skill of 100 it's 1% per shot.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:48 PM   #5
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Dear Glitchless:

Pretty weak test. First and last hit? The vagaries of the random number generator all but invalidate that. Still, if that's what you want, here goes (Endless Canyon, skills, stats, gear as described above) (These are about 4 minutes fights for me, so the skill should have reached its maximum effectiveness): Oh, in Endless Canyon I do use a whip and shield for survivability, so my INT/CNC decline a bit.

Test 1: 747; 676

Test 2: 643; 786

Test 3: 726; 715

Test 4: 650; 686

Test 5: 800; 449

At what point at we going to conclude this isn't working? I'm getting PMs from all the bow fighters who won't post here because of the forum trolls. You can PM me and say "Gee TJ, I don't see any forum trolls in your topic," but that doesn't change anything. The forum trolls chased many players away from posting in these forums a long time ago. If you haven't figured that out Glitchless, then so be it.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #6
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Sigh.
I never wanted to make a Forum account, but oh well.
Anyway: There is one case where we CAN "rely on [our] senses to detect an increases from shot to shot.".
And that is maximum crits. Tell me whatever you want about the people here, any MMO player keeps track of those for his or her e-peens sake.
If we postulate that the skill works as advertised, we should see all those uber crits towards the end of fights. That is not the case. To date I have never cracked the 2.5k mark while farming. Considering I regularly exceed 2.4k dmg on the opening shot I should have.
In theory I should be able to score hits that exceed 2.5k dmg if I had a 5% bonus to damage (if we say that my max dmg is 2.4k to keep it simple). at EW level 67 I gain 0.67% bonus dmg per hit, so the required 5% threshold is breached after 8 hits. in N lake (hell even in S lake or rapids) that happens more often than not, still 2.5k is out of my reach.

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Old 12-26-2012, 06:45 PM   #7
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I have done a few fights so far in redwood with the same auras out to prevent broadhead skewing the results

opening shot; final hit

327.18; 624.6875

202.5; 423

401.25; 404.375

248.75; 575.3125

232.5; 286.25

EDIT: a few more for today

365.625; 486.25

481.875; 527.5

376; 350

476.25; 539.375

468.75; 404.375

364; 582.5

I will continue testing and logging hits
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:02 PM   #8
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I didn't want to wade into this either as I have reported this skill not working as it should numerous times to you glitch but been shot down everytime so i just got frustaited with reporting it and just got on with it

In pit i have had opening shots of between 3.6k- 3.8k these are long fights with shots of well over your 25 the best i have ever seen is a 4127 according to what your saying i should be seeing hits of over 4.5k i have never ever even seen one even come close!

my exploit weakness is at 95 a fellow archer kamber has it at 100 and he's never seen a 25% damage increase shot either!

maybe this skill should be changed to a 25% damage increase at 100 skill level insted as the upscaling damage just isn't working the way it should it still wont put us in same league as crushers and casters but would close the gap!

anyway this is the last time i'm commenting on it as fed up with being told i'm wrong lol

happy xmas guys and hope it gets sorted

Last edited by chrisdj; 12-26-2012 at 07:05 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:04 PM   #9
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I dont have an archer 80+ but I have 2 things to add that might make testing go a little better:

First, Glitch said your max hit after youve done 25 shots, not your "last" shot. Record all openers, and record the last ~5 hits from those long fights, and compare the averages. Actually, come to think of it, I would compare your 2nd hit averages to those last 5 or so, to avoid the extra damage from the added crit chance from Ambush. That avoids the need for megacrits being factored out, once you get enough data, the averages won't lie.

Secondly, instead of using the 99/LG bowsets with huge damage ranges, get a lvl 20-40 bowset, turn on TM, and go to rapids/slake or so, where you know you won't die, but the fight will take a bunch of shots. With lower numbers, it will be easier to determine when megacrits happen, if you want to continue trying to get "base" damage.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:20 PM   #10
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I have to amend my above statement. After some not so slight upgrades to my gear i breached 2.5k by 23 points. It was, however, on the 2nd shot of the fight (2nd shot of opening trishot) and it was due to the very recent upgrades so my overall point remains.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:23 PM   #11
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TJ, what you say is logical but irrelevant given that over a fight the damage fluctuates between maximum and minimum and maximum touches in this game few times in a fight, maybe once a fight or a just once in several battles. Average of Dex maybe also helps in obtaining a lower or higher damage.

My archery skills are all over 90 and Exploit Weakness 90.
I had recently put bow and arrow nightkeeper and neverspent quiver. My CNC fluctuates from 689 to 662 and dex between 511 and 548 depending on if I use two whips or 2h piercer.
How I managed to watch i have damage between 600 and 2570 with my bow, often have damage between 800 and 1800. It may have had more damage but I didn't watch.
Anyway... in the middle of tha battle i can hit sometimes 2k and next, untill finished battle, only below 1,5k.
In this game the thing goes like this... if I have the skills at max i can have properly damage.

I do not know what he think when Glitch create this skill but I think can't be any archer to stand alone before big bosses so much that was really to see the action of that skill.
In fact I think that many of skills around here do not have the desired effect and are made available only to burn the players trophies, and this balancing somehow the differences between classes.
I feel that the skills Poison Arrow and Flameshot don't add up but I really didn't watch it.
But if you open these post and Glitch really wants to make it to work, as archer I support you.
Surely there's something wrong that should be corrected as over time has been done before in this game.

Last edited by Fior; 12-26-2012 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:25 PM   #12
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dex doenst effect damage in any way.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:01 PM   #13
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Glitchless:

Like usual, this is rapidly going nowhere.

I've been a dedicated bow fighter for about three years now. I've had an epic 99 bow set for about 18 months, and began upgrading to legendary 100 bow gear about six months ago.

My Master's thesis was about decision theory applied to management decisions. I understand probability. My doctoral dissertation is about decision theory applied to mass evacuation decisions. I understand probability. I ran combat simulation centers for the US Army for 20+ years. A few used deterministic models; most used stochastic models. I understand probability.

I can tell the difference between a hit for 800 damage and 1,000 damage, or, following Stormy's reasoning with low level bow gear, 100 and 125. When this topic first came up my exploit weakness skill was 28. Even then, I was able to convince Glitchless the skill was not working properly, and he corrected an error in the formula.

Well, my skill is 93, and that should represent a big difference in long fights. Thanks to the role back of the damage mitigation patch, I now routinely fight in Redwood Forest, Endless Canyon and sometime the Pit. Those are all 4+ minute fights, which gives the exploit weakness skill time to maximize. I am not seeing anywhere near a 25% increase in damage over these long fights, and neither is anyone else I have communicated with via PM. I'm not seeing much if any increased damage at all.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Jordan View Post
Glitchless:

Like usual, this is rapidly going nowhere.

I've been a dedicated bow fighter for about three years now. I've had an epic 99 bow set for about 18 months, and began upgrading to legendary 100 bow gear about six months ago.

My Master's thesis was about decision theory applied to management decisions. I understand probability. My doctoral dissertation is about decision theory applied to mass evacuation decisions. I understand probability. I ran combat simulation centers for the US Army for 20+ years. A few used deterministic models; most used stochastic models. I understand probability.

I can tell the difference between a hit for 800 damage and 1,000 damage, or, following Stormy's reasoning with low level bow gear, 100 and 125. When this topic first came up my exploit weakness skill was 28. Even then, I was able to convince Glitchless the skill was not working properly, and he corrected an error in the formula.

Well, my skill is 93, and that should represent a big difference in long fights. Thanks to the role back of the damage mitigation patch, I now routinely fight in Redwood Forest, Endless Canyon and sometime the Pit. Those are all 4+ minute fights, which gives the exploit weakness skill time to maximize. I am not seeing anywhere near a 25% increase in damage over these long fights, and neither is anyone else I have communicated with via PM. I'm not seeing much if any increased damage at all.
I have a way to publicly test this that will show if it's working or not. If it turns out it's not working we'll have to eat some humble pie and give you some TCs for your persistence in pursuing this despite us telling you otherwise.

What we will be doing is adding a bow and arrow to the game that have equal min and max damage so there should be very little damage spread (unless your class/skill/gem/effect adds to max damage). This should show us clearly what is happening and if the skill is working correctly or not.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:24 PM   #15
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Thanks for the extra effort Glitch.
I don't know if I'll keep a copy of the bow and arrow as a memento of the extra work you're ready to do for all of us, even if I don't intend on ever becoming an archer again.

Will the bow disappear from the game eventually, or is it there to stay?
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:44 PM   #16
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Using the new bow and arrow exploit weakness appears to be working properly as we suspected. There is still a moderate damage spread but it's clear when you compare average early hits to average 25+ hits.

I figured it went without saying that when recording your first hits and 25+ hits that you would separate them into crit/noncrit - preferably actually just to include non-crit since crits have an absolutely huge spread due to megacrit.

Murdoc is absolutely correct, keeping track of your highest hit is a good way to see if it is working as well but only if you are only considering highest hits vs. the same creature and again preferably if you only consider non-crits. Crits should work as well in the long run but you need a far greater sample to ever hit your true maximums. MMOers have a way of forgetting that their uber 2nd hit crits were against low level creatures while they were walking around and half asleep.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:49 PM   #17
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I'm game. Where do I find this new "bow and arrow" to use for testing?
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:51 PM   #18
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Castille General store.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:11 PM   #19
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so it seems my data was not being skewed then and it is working

to clear it up though glitch, does exploit weakness increase max damage 25% with a chance to hit it or is it a flat 25% increase on everything.

like you hit for 1,000 does it let you hit 1,000-1,250 or is it an insta 1,250 hit
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:15 PM   #20
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The description doesn't specify it just says damage. Whenever that is the case it is adding to both min and max damage. If your original spread was 100-200 it would be 125-250.
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