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Old 12-27-2012, 12:38 AM   #21
Glitchless
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We cloned TJ, used the new trial bow and arrow, removed pets and chestpiece, and fought in Sandy Beach.

You had a damage range of roughly 76 to 120 on opening shots, then it's about 87 to 140 after 25 shots. Given the large spread it can be difficult to eyeball the increase but when you look at the range of damage it is really indisputable.

Doing the math on your max damage with that gear results in an opening max of about 126 and a max after 25 shots of 146, however, it takes a lot of testing to actually see such high numbers.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:38 AM   #22
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I have tested exploit weakness with the bow of trials , arrow of trials and mate catcher quiver (level 33) , my archery level is at 88 first couple of hours my second shot was 72 (average hit stayed at 72 as well) and pretty much stayed there. After that I leveled exploit weakness to just 10. My average hit went up to 74. I have no other skills then archery 88 and now exploit weakness 10.

Each time taking the second shot as reference point and my last killing shot.
I have tested in both scenarios in N. Lake in normal mode and hero mode.

Conclusion after doing the math: Seems to be working .
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:45 AM   #23
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Ty Noremorse, good to know. Maybe Glitch leave that bow and arrow there forever.
Have you been testing that car on youre image also ?
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccyx View Post
so all this is about 10 to 20 extra damage.... I think we found the troll!
Lol
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:26 AM   #25
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Very well. Thank you for the attention and for clearing that up.

Regards,
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Ty Noremorse, good to know. Maybe Glitch leave that bow and arrow there forever.
Have you been testing that car on youre image also ?
that car is my design and build then produced as regular car, was an order for a racing car with min 1750 bhp .. it exceeded all expectations. 2 of this in the world that are race and road legal, this is all I am going to say bout the design and specs
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:39 PM   #27
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I went the extra mile and evaluated my farming performance.I did not keep the most accurate records, I looked at the basics (only basic hits and not a a huge number of fights). it DOES seem to be working, once i really accepted that any high level bows damage spread is just on this side of insane. Max crit seems a perfectly reasonable indicator at first glance, however, it represents the very rare exceptions of dealing max base damage and scoring a megacrit. obvious when put like that, but misleading at first glance since its very rare non the less. Its a sum of unlikely happenstances and thus is not as strong an argument as i first postulated. The exceptions cant be taken as norm after all.
Error on my part, and thanks once again for the (provable) effort on your side Glitch.
Kind regards,
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:18 PM   #28
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Glitchless has been helping me collect data for very long bow fights. Listed below are the results of four such fights.

562 638 851 589
703 941 480 905
747 905 704 808
670 863 701 837
802 313 768 597
684 367 629 827
611 929 625 786
430 650 775 915
695 912 880 821
818 524 807 770
398 937 788 848
711 832 836 605
892 731 651 919
884 817 387 875
930 720 779 889
888 891 915 583
736 760 876 640
417 729 637 765
919 806 743 732
699 878 890 626
564 455 390 452
815 896 859 265
390 762 730 656
870 528 900 793
810 949 860 772
840 796 596 859
826 821 894 749
937 746 936 476
869 856 782 322
929 955 721 702
707 628 729 639
821 682 741 690
638 767 792 728
694 910 687 743
713 769 683 918
650 680 720 766
681 662 893 387
917 893 636 693
544 647 635 743
755 671 864 678
649 776 947 551
745 727 847 665
766 796 485 659
881 881 793 57
846 755 126 909
678 665 741 752
392 900 740 725
677 928 896 712
870 900 684 591
643 662 743
287 952 642
421 932 656
845 804 420
642 555 374
423 752 759
266 594
566 690
778 726
741 811
629



Mean 719.9327354
Median 743
Mode 743
Std Dev 165.2285067
Minimum 57
Maximum 955

Here are the line graphs for these four data sets, with trend lines displayed:



Three of the four data sets display a negative trend line. The second data set displays approximately a 5% increase in damage over time. I'm continuing to generate data for additional analysis.
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Last edited by Thomas Jordan; 12-29-2012 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:26 PM   #29
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Those graphs are charting a specific Nth hit over a series of many fights, not the hits in order of a long fight. For instance, that forth chart is from http://www.nodiatis.com/thomasjordan...r%20Spider.csv which lists all your 2nd normal shots (ie not crits or megacrits) on Giant Water Spiders over the past few days.

All the data is available for anyone to view and analyze here http://www.nodiatis.com/thomasjordan/

The file naming scheme is as follows:
The number trailing Eqp represents your equipment, it sill change if your equipment does.
The "Norm" "Crit" or "Mega" after that refers to normal, crits, or mega crits.
The number following that shows what # hit that was vs. the creature - i.e. the Exploit Weakness modifier.
Then of course comes the name of the creature you were fighting.

Here's the data from the 10 CSV files representing your first 10 normal shots vs Lake Goddess over the past couple days:


As you can see the average and max data trends up as expected with Exploit Weakness. The max damage is especially telling. We'll keep the data collection going as long as is needed.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:36 PM   #30
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Thanks Glitchless.

I was a bit uncertain about exactly what data was being captured in each of those files. Some of it frankly made little sense. Your explanation here helps a lot.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:40 PM   #31
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Yeah I apologize for the confusion. I should have explained the naming convention of the files better when I first gave you the link. The number prior to the creature name is the hit #, not the fight # - an important detail


Also more data collected from a few other players can be found here:
www.nodiatis.com/frailc
www.nodiatis.com/chrisdj
www.nodiatis.com/rogue


No, don't ask us to track your character too, these are the only ones we'll be doing.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:44 PM   #32
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I want to thank you for the effort you have expended to prove this skill is, or is not, working. Either way, thank you for the effort.

TJ
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:37 PM   #33
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HI,
At post no #30, Tj put lowest 57 damage but do not forget miss shots ? MISS should have the zero value.
I haven't seen any Miss out there.
Minimum is 57 because after 25 shots, hit already contains a value of 25% of Exploit Weakeness skill because without that skill would have been with a value less than 1-25% depending on the size ot the skill (maybe 42 damage).

Critical, serial criticaly, megacrit ... Provide up to a ...% chance depending on the size of skill but that does not necessarily mean that is happening.
Damage also depends on variables ot the opponents.

In my opinion, in a commercial game, developers will be such that the minimum values are always much more than the maximum values, and the maximum values will be reached very hard even if we have all skills at maximum. In this way the game can seem more interesting.

Therefore, my opinion is that : Exploit weakeness already takes effect because description of skill is: "With this skill, every shot you land in ranged combat youre Will Increase ranged damage. At max skill will you deal 25% extra damage after 25 shots". With this kind of description developer have perfectly right and skills works perfectly.
Description that probably all archers would have wanted to hear/read is: "With this skill, every shot you land in ranged combat youre Will Increase ranged damage. At max skill Will you deal 25% extra damage, greater than the highest damage that you had before in this fight, after 25 shots".
We must not be confuse between the two descriptions.

Well... however... if you want something to change in that skill, because archers to have a higher damage, better let us pray to Glitch to modify the method of calculation that it is as I said in the second description, namely : "With this skill, every shot you land in ranged combat youre Will increase ranged damage. At max skill Will you deal 25% extra damage, greater than the highest damage that you had before in this fight, after 25 shots".

Last edited by Fior; 12-29-2012 at 06:44 PM..
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:18 PM   #34
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Glitchless:

Relook at the Excel Spreadsheet you posted above.

You labelled hit number across the top, and apparently then listed multiple fight data points below that. So how can there be a hit #2 (F46 through F66) if there wasn't a hit #1? I readily accept that not all of the fights lasted 10 hits; while I've never ambush killed in N. Lake, I have come close a few times. But every data set should have a hit #1 listed, shouldn't it?

I'm getting confused.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:23 PM   #35
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Because they are all the normal hits landed. The crits and mega crits are in different files. The total number of normal+crit+mega #2 hits could not exceed the total normal+crit+mega #1 hits, however.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:32 PM   #36
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I recognize the crit & mega crits are in separate files.

I'm just confused about what I'm seeing here. Many of my first hits are crits. As at times are my second, third etc. I could understand if there were holes in the data you presented above corresponding to those crit and mega crit hits, but there aren't. The only "hole" seems to be in hit #1, and perhaps hit #2.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:12 PM   #37
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Take a look at the corresponding hit # files with crits and megas and you'll see that each hit # total number of hits (normal + crit + mega) will be less than or equal to the total number in the previous # files and you won't see any holes as you put it.

Also it's important to note, the hits on my graph listed as hit #1 are actually the second hit. The first hit data is stored in http://www.nodiatis.com/thomasjordan...%20Goddess.csv since the number prior to the creature name is actually representing the # of hits you've landed so far as opposed to the hit number. The data for that file is:
638,785,769,728,888,675,460,521,791,889,852,709 with an average of 725.4166667
and a Max of 889.

So lets take a look at all the 1st hits (the #0 file) for Lake Goddess: 68 crits, 25 megs, 6 normal = 99 total first hit data points
Now take a look at the 2nd hits (#1 file): 40 crits, 43 megas, 16 normal = 99 total second hit data points
There are no holes.

There are far fewer data points for normal hits in the #0, #1 and #2 files because of ambush combined with trishot. Ambush affects all the opening three shots if trishot procs.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:21 PM   #38
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I liked when daer tested this a few months back when he didn't have crit leveled at all so it was easy to see the numbers.
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:15 PM   #39
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Doing some analysis on the TJ Norm2 Giant Water Spider file. It has 68 data points, making it the single largest available to play with (at least that I have opened).

Mean = 680.3970588
Standard Deviation = 175.5008915

That means most of my hits should be between 855.897950 and 504.8961673. Now, multiplying my mean damage by the 23.75% gain I should see after 25 hits produces 841.9913603. This value is within the range of my normal second hit damage.

I have a combined INT/CNC of 856, which is typical for bow fighters (Rogue has slightly less, Frailc has slightly more, and Chrisdj is currently offline, so I can't look his up).

It appears the wide variation in damage per hit may be masking the effect of exploit weakness. For example, I could well hit for the calculated value of 841.999 on my 25th hit, but since that is within the range of my second hit damage, not recognize it as being increased damage. The data suggests that I'm not going to recognize a normal hit as being from exploit weakness until it starts getting over about 1,000. I have seen some of those, and I'm sure if I opened up all of the data sets Glitchless is capturing I'd find some.

Looking at the analysis Glitchless provided in post #31 above, all of the average damage scores through hit #10 are well within the expected range of my second hit damage range. So I think that's what happening. The damage per hit may well be increasing as it should (and his graph in post #31 shows that is), but the wide variation in damage per hit is masking the effect of exploit weakness.

I'm going to keep playing with more data sets.

It would be interesting to capture this data for a player with considerably more combined INT/CNC to see if that reduced the standard deviation. I may run some data from Rogue and Frailc, but since their combined INT/CNC isn't that much different than mine I really wouldn't expect to see much difference in their standard deviations.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:37 PM   #40
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The data will continue to accumulate.
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