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Melee vs Caster Argument
Old 04-15-2012, 10:56 PM   #1
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Default Melee vs Caster Argument

Casters say they should be able to farm 5x faster because they have to click multiple times.

Then why is it that Brother only needs to click once to PL me in rapids as a caster?
(Nothing against Brother, and not suggesting he didn't work very hard to become so OP)

Melee may only require one click, but clicking more won't speed it up! I love the new melee auras, but I really think that melee needs something active to make farming faster.

This is part of the reason why I pushed so hard for DoT buffs (yes I'm partly to blame for that >.<), only to see DoT casters grow strong, with DoT support for melee still remaining worthless, and nothing more than a waste of mana.

I have tested melee DoT builds with 281 Cnc against level 64/65 mobs, and even with necromancer class bonus to black gems, the damage is insignificant and the even with few resists, the nearly 200 points that were used for cnc, not to mention those used for mana, could have been better spent in some other stat such as dex or str.

So then, let me restate. I am not looking for a caster nerf, or a melee buff. All I am looking for is a way to make melee stronger (even if just a bit) for those who want to click more than one time per fight.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:04 PM   #2
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a staff only increases dot damage by around 25% so as melee your not really losing much, its just the mana/energy cost and gem haste thats augments by the staff, so more mana/energy bursts might give you want you want
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:05 PM   #3
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I have an idea, instead of bitching about your current toon, build a caster to farm like brother, until then become equal or GTFO
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:14 PM   #4
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really? this same old argument again lol well i will start off with a Glitchless quote "think casters are so great, reroll" or similer to that anyhow.
ya i mean really he gave you an easy way to get oped in any class you want with almost no effort so if it is worth it to you to be equil to a caster so be it...

now let me ask you how much xp in raw skills do you have to compare to a op'ed capped caster that is how old? and has invested how much in getting there? not to mention you do realize that there are casters closer to your age and xp that can be outfarmed and beaten by OP'ed melee toons too not to mention whippers that can outheal almost anything.

oh yes and lets not forget what did you pay for your weapon? probly about the same cost as a caster pays for there staff right? does it also cost you millions to upgrade your pouch on top of that while leveling? just some thoughts

but ya im all for everything being equil so classes dont matter , perfect lil boring cookie cutter of a game where everything is a draw but hmm maybe we should also get rid of auto attack and just make it so that when your weapons delay is up you are able to draw another swing and swing (cast)it, that seems a lil closer to fair now dont it? ohhh but wait i think that weapon should use vast amounts or energy and mana too forcing you to use many manabursts and invigs dont you yaaa there now bump up the produced damage and now were getting the makings of balancing things for you right... how are you likeing it ..

moral of this is to think before posting , be sure you really understand the possible outcomes of what you ask for because there can be no "ohh please buff me i wanna be more op'ed " without unwanted side effects jmo

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Originally Posted by Huggles View Post
Casters say they should be able to farm 5x faster because they have to click multiple times.

Then why is it that Brother only needs to click once to PL me in rapids as a caster?
(Nothing against Brother, and not suggesting he didn't work very hard to become so OP)

Melee may only require one click, but clicking more won't speed it up! I love the new melee auras, but I really think that melee needs something active to make farming faster.

This is part of the reason why I pushed so hard for DoT buffs (yes I'm partly to blame for that >.<), only to see DoT casters grow strong, with DoT support for melee still remaining worthless, and nothing more than a waste of mana.

I have tested melee DoT builds with 281 Cnc against level 64/65 mobs, and even with necromancer class bonus to black gems, the damage is insignificant and the even with few resists, the nearly 200 points that were used for cnc, not to mention those used for mana, could have been better spent in some other stat such as dex or str.

So then, let me restate. I am not looking for a caster nerf, or a melee buff. All I am looking for is a way to make melee stronger (even if just a bit) for those who want to click more than one time per fight.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:53 PM   #5
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really? this same old argument again lol well i will start off with a Glitchless quote "think casters are so great, reroll" or similer to that anyhow.
ya i mean really he gave you an easy way to get oped in any class you want with almost no effort so if it is worth it to you to be equil to a caster so be it...

I believe he also said something along the lines of a rerolled toon will never have as much xp (possibly be as strong??) as a toon that just diversifies their current build.

now let me ask you how much xp in raw skills do you have to compare to a op'ed capped caster that is how old? and has invested how much in getting there? not to mention you do realize that there are casters closer to your age and xp that can be outfarmed and beaten by OP'ed melee toons too not to mention whippers that can outheal almost anything.

Born: 1/7/'09
XP: 43.034B
Can I farm fast?... Yes... Do casters farm A LOT faster?... YES.. EVEN casters w/ much much less xp... and born much much later....


oh yes and lets not forget what did you pay for your weapon? probly about the same cost as a caster pays for there staff right? does it also cost you millions to upgrade your pouch on top of that while leveling? just some thoughts

I had the 1st 99 2h piercer in game, so this is when mat's were MUCH MUCH more expensive than they are today, b/c of the high demand for them, 99 epics being the live all/ die all at the time. IIRC:
6 t30 Leathers, todays price: 8M+ (not including crafting price)
5 T30 Ingots, todays price: 5.125M+ (not including crafting price)
2 Remembrance Resin, price: almost 400K
Total: 13.525M (Remember, when i bought these mat's, prices were about 1.5x of what they are now)

I am not going to list every gem I have in my pouch, but more than casters play gems, or even epic gems at that. My Inventory is FULL of extras that do not fit into my "escape pouch"... thou it is 2/3 filled....I guarantee you, my pouch is more expensive than yours. So, yes, millions upon millions is an understatement even for melee users when it comes to gems. I am not the only one either, ask Concede.


but ya im all for everything being equil so classes dont matter , perfect lil boring cookie cutter of a game where everything is a draw but hmm maybe we should also get rid of auto attack and just make it so that when your weapons delay is up you are able to draw another swing and swing (cast)it, that seems a lil closer to fair now dont it? ohhh but wait i think that weapon should use vast amounts or energy and mana too forcing you to use many manabursts and invigs dont you yaaa there now bump up the produced damage and now were getting the makings of balancing things for you right... how are you likeing it ..

Yes, I actually think that is a good idea, the manual melee swing. But you make too much of mana/en req's of gems. That IS the cost, but the benefit is near nil delay to the DPS.... w/ incantation rune, recastable DD's, and an innate + wizardry skill to boost it delay minimizer; the BENEFIT FAR OUTWEIGHS THE PRICE.

moral of this is to think before posting , be sure you really understand the possible outcomes of what you ask for because there can be no "ohh please buff me i wanna be more op'ed " without unwanted side effects jmo
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:23 PM   #6
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IMO, so called melee casters are pure fail builds. If you consider only Wizardry (x1.8 haste), Staves (gem use 40% less energy) and Metal Conservation (gem use 50% less mana) then you can see that staff triples caster's dps: 1.8 / (1 - 0.4) = 3. Also there are so many others skills with "if you have staff equipped" requirement which brings 1/3 staff users dps down to about 1/5 for non staff users. On the other hand 99 staff has 70% dps of 99 crusher. So caster with melee stats invested can have 70% dps of melee user additionally to their gem dps but melee user with caster's stats invested can have only 20% of casters gem dps.

It would be fair if there was a skill for non staff users doubling DD and DOT damage and also remove "if you have staff equipped" requirement from almost all skills (except Wizardry, Staves, Metal Conservation and perhaps some others)
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:27 PM   #7
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I am a caster who bashes 1.2k+ crits with my staff in addition to my gem damage. I do just fine.

or did you mean only those using non-staff weapons and casting DD gems?

Last edited by Brother; 04-16-2012 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:28 PM   #8
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catsers so op love it cant wait till i get liek 20bil to build one
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:29 PM   #9
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wait for it .. wait for it... a specific someone* will come and say "buff melee"... wait for it...


But no seriously, this argument is so old :/ I dont even want to talk about it anymore. except that I think it is balanced right now.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:40 PM   #10
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The best final build over all for pvp and pve doesnt require a staff, i challenge anyone who dares to actually do something instead of assuming something to build an Archer/whipper dd for pve and an Archer/whipper dotter for pvp.

There is absolutely no skill that adds more damage to dds just because you use a staff btw only skills that add a little more regenerations and less cost but if you use mana theft and energy theft runes u will drain more from bow damage and pets damage that with only dds.

You guys keep complaining yet i dont see anyone who has ever actually do all the builds at once like i have done, besides probably Roguetiger, which i remember beating him with a bow and whips with Sanlucifer at full hp ( long time ago) not to mention the many new skills that were added to bows and the best combo possitiblity with dots and bladow now.

Everything is different, you cant expect to be equal to all the builds otherwise this called strategy wont exist, what you need to do is to have all possible builds in your toon and use them wisely for each and different occasions.

I was one of the people who asked buffs for my class often enough or nerf for others often enough... until i realize that i could be everything, Bonuses from classes are worthless, skills and strategy is everything.

Adapt, build up like an intelligent man and stop bitching and start fishing ffs.

Reroll is free and gets u x9 trophies and xp if you have accel, you cant pretend to feel bad cause you dont like ur build and dont lose time building more builds cause that just pathetic and hypocrite, all the skills are out there, all the possibilities to be what you want are there and there is absolutely no restrictions to any skill, they are open to anyone so by asking for a nerf you are potentially nerfing the game for you in a future when you decide to play real PvP and be able or have desires to beat ANYONE by using everything.

So, lets see how many people can actually prove me wrong with this.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlucifer View Post
There is absolutely no skill that adds more damage to dds just because you use a staff btw only skills that add a little more regenerations and less cost
80% haste bonus from staff = you draw mana/energy burst 80% more often = you restore energy/mana 80% faster = you cast DDs or DOTs 80% more often

Also
Destruction bonus = 1.3 for staff user vs 1.1 for non staff user
Sleight of hand = 1.1 for staff user vs no bonus for non staff user
Tunnel vision = extra cast chance for staff users only
etc...
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:26 PM   #12
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Dps = damage per second, not damage only, only skills that add damage is inferno and necromancy and dont require a staff to work, u can crit 4 without a staff and drain or get fast draws doing some replay if u play with only blue and red in this particular case, also you will get a bigger benefit from the hasta aura and the haste rune and u will constally drain mana/energy from thefts.

IF you want to find a 5th leg to the cat, enjoy the time that you are wasting while everyone else progress without complaining and actually leveling everything.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:33 PM   #13
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These mana energy theft runes are so ineffective. Say after killing mob with 6k health you get 6k x 0.04 = 240 mana. That is not enough to cast even one R18 inferno. Most regeneration still comes with mana/energy burst. Haste aura and rune helps a bit but you have to sacrifice other aura and rune again which barely make any difference in the end. Replay is only really useful for haste, though is quite low, like 20% haste bonus.

Staff users can cast damage gems 3 times more often due to much faster energy regen with energy bursts and much lower energy cost per cast.

I'm not trying to find 5th leg or 2nd tail. Just showing that non staff user can not reach even 1/3 of staff user DPs.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Sanlucifer View Post
The best final build over all for pvp and pve doesnt require a staff, i challenge anyone who dares to actually do something instead of assuming something to build an Archer/whipper dd for pve and an Archer/whipper dotter for pvp.

There is absolutely no skill that adds more damage to dds just because you use a staff btw only skills that add a little more regenerations and less cost but if you use mana theft and energy theft runes u will drain more from bow damage and pets damage that with only dds.

You guys keep complaining yet i dont see anyone who has ever actually do all the builds at once like i have done, besides probably Roguetiger, which i remember beating him with a bow and whips with Sanlucifer at full hp ( long time ago) not to mention the many new skills that were added to bows and the best combo possitiblity with dots and bladow now.

Everything is different, you cant expect to be equal to all the builds otherwise this called strategy wont exist, what you need to do is to have all possible builds in your toon and use them wisely for each and different occasions.
San... u r actually my inspiration ... I do remember that duel(s?) very very well... indeed.... I want one day to come very high on the pk tops list.. and I am not a copier... I see what I like, transform it into my own, and continue to make my own signature tweaks and modifications; that said, Angeltiger, has been ressurected, the motivation from which came from that duel, and instead of using staff this time... guess what... bow/DD'r.... just like you.... were... LOL... In all my Nod experience I have not lost a duel soooo badly esp'lly when I have been at cap and not to toot my own horn, but think I am atleast a good fight for most/everybody.

Like you said, I have multiple builds for varying occasions. And, I can even see a (POSSIBLY) successful DD build given the current leg'dry armor selections. But, well.. yes... it is about me... but it is also about others... should every toon out there have to completely change up their DPS source and/or their defensive strategy for every occasion?.. IMO.. no. Yes, everyone makes modifications to their own methods of success be it pve or pvp depending on the situation; but, asking everyone to "switch it up" on cue is just too much to ask from a population. I do not believe that every melee toon out there should have a DD build just to farm as effectively as a primary caster. Should there be toons out there that can?.. yes, and there are. But to say claim, if I understand you correctly, that joe melee is under-utilizing their toon because they do not have a DD'er sub-build for occasions such as farming seems a little bit too much to ask of the average player.

One of the points I was trying to make with my post is that given all my experience, and all the time my toon has been around and working at becoming stronger (which you have to agree, atleast a part of which can be measured by how fast do you farm), casters with negligible experience comparatively and much newer born dates, can kill so much quicker than I can; and I am one of the fastest melee farmers out there.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:55 PM   #15
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I agree.. i never said the opposite, its called glass cannon and i have seen some 2h "non glass cannon" that can farm as fast as dds, Perhaps not a dual wielder but then again we will be trying to make every toon farm as fast as the other and then we will fall into a thing of choosing the most practical and cheap which would be a melee choice.

Let it be, join it or hate it and pride doesnt help, adapt or fail. Its my advice.

I am a pure PvP guy since before nod, in nod i found a complex and big PvP system that in my opinion was really neat however there is a kinda original mixture in the way of PvP and PvE , you need PvE to become good in PvP and i see what is the problem or the concerns...

I would like to suggest melees to use dds to kill as fast as casters in PvE unless Glitchless decides to revamp the game and make energy and mana for casters only and add some kind of "rage bar" for melees in order to get benefits from it and kill faster in PvE more hits landed more higher/progressive damage ( i just dont know how to explain it better, maybe Exploit Weakness from archers skills is a good example).

Because melees can actually farm as fast as dds but dds will get the advantage first if they start from the beginning as dds. ( but im afraid this is part of one of the pro tips too).

It is hard to find a perfect balance that doesnt interfere with PvP due of how the game works, Just my honest opinion.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:55 PM   #16
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no offence but im noticing a pattern in this thread and others just like it...
and that is i never once saw any posts from Roguetiger when he was on top beating everyone else but now that he fell a bit it starts rather than adapt and change stratagy.. and dont get me wrong this isnt just pick on rogue, i have noticed this with alot of the top op'ed peeps .

as far as i know the game isnt just sposed to be about one player being uber but rather making teams that support and compliment each other to achive the goal and as i see it if all were the same lil equil cookie cutters that would no longer be the case really, there would be no diversity ..

there is no I in Uber
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:00 PM   #17
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The "rage bar" or skill would work wonders considering big game trophies and max coinage, thats where the melees could take the most advantage figthing blacks vs dds.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sexykills View Post
no offence but im noticing a pattern in this thread and others just like it...
and that is i never once saw any posts from Roguetiger when he was on top beating everyone else but now that he fell a bit it starts rather than adapt and change stratagy.. and dont get me wrong this isnt just pick on rogue, i have noticed this with alot of the top op'ed peeps .
I fell from grace???... damn... and nobody told me
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:54 AM   #19
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There is absolutely no skill that adds more damage to dds just because you use a staff btw only skills that add a little more regenerations and less cost .
Last time I checked, 20% crit was a damage boost, that requires NO XP, and only works with a staff.

But ofc, crits aren't a good source of damage...
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:02 PM   #20
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Buff melee!
Does I winz? :3
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