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Brother 05-02-2019 04:35 PM

Toad of Instransigence
 
http://i66.tinypic.com/2w56rnt.png

Huggles 05-02-2019 04:47 PM

Oh good, now all the problems with drains are completely fixed.

Glitchless 05-02-2019 04:53 PM

It's easy to be snarky. It would be harder to explain the problems you think still exist.

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 05:34 PM

The issue with drains is that they make tanks completely useless in any format that doesn't give you the drain proof via staff of shielding. You can't tank in any other format without using regen, unless you have a healer... who already has the drain counter staff anyways. Meaning, you aren't surviving at all without the regen and the 90% listless makes the toad un-usable specially considering you get multiple drains placed on you during a match to the point that the mitigation to the drains doesn't actually help at all. It may help vs 1 drain, but not multiple. You won't live long enough without the regen for that to matter though.

Freakymagic 05-02-2019 05:38 PM

My problem is this pet is very hard to actually use in 1v1 or 3v3 solo que.

1v1 If you start with this pet every fight your at a disadvantage since not everyone is a drainer. If you dont start with this VS a drainer, your drained before you get the drain reduction.

Similar problem in 3v3 solo que. Nearly useless to start with it / if you dont start your drained before it matters. Some caster builds are able to take the useless pets more often then not. BUT thats 1 build.

Tanks/melee need timmies to survive, so either they get drained, or they die very fast. Regardless what option you choose the result is the same, Drains screwed you that match.

Bms cant really run it since lack of dps/useful proc for majority of fights.
Archers. Need timmies/stalkers to survive, same issue as melee
dders Again if they dont run regen/timmies or stalkers they die very fast and losign those for most fights is not a real option, unlikely being able to swap to them before being drained
Dbl doter. One of the only builds that can take the hit of useless pets most fights since most run mongos/hogs and can swap to those at the start without a major loss.
Staff doters & healers already using shielding staff so dont need the counter

Could be useful in premade arena depending on the team and options up options, BUT, that is a very niche lg that has 10+ months gap to being useful. Even in premade doubt more then a couple teams who try to arena without healers will use it

Glitchless 05-02-2019 06:44 PM

Sounds like the argument and/or problem is regen and Timmy is OP in non 3v3 premade where you can't rely on a healer. And no one is trying self healing as an alternative due to it being underpowered or simply unexplored. As more and more counters to regen and tools that only work for nonregen come out, though, that may be a necessity.

The overall/average effect of the crit resist doesn't appear to be fully appreciated yet. This reduces damage taken by a considerable %, especially in PvP, and especially against attacks that would have had a greater chance to actually end your life.

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 07:09 PM

Self healing isn't really possible for anything other than staff users... which at that point you would just use staff of shielding and the drain mitigation portion of it is meaningless.... Regen is strong in these formats where healers aren't something you can rely on yes. But having a 100k gem completely negate someones ability to do the thing they're trying to (taunt so your team can actually live and do damage) is a bit ridiculous. Even just dropping the timmy its self to put on the toad, compeltely ignoring the fact it then further degens you by 90% is a massive loss in your ability to stay alive. There is already a lot of counters to regen...

I dont think it's right to have the toad add the 90% listless as well. You can't just broadly claim timmy or regen is op in any format that's not 3v3 premade either. It's a combination of a lot of things that go into the regeners actually being strong toons. You can't just throw regen and timmies on any toon and do well. The people with the higher win/loss ratios do regen, but we're also just strong toons outright, you take away our ability to survive, or our ability to help other toons on our team survive and most everything in this format is going to be useless. Melee doesn't deal incredible dps, nor do archers, or even DD's for that matter to people who are setup to somewhat counter them(having any decent amount of cnt mitigates so much of a DD's damage) It's just a bit silly that some of the strongest toons in game are completely countered by a gem that costs nearly nothing to buy, and can be used very easily by certain builds. This does not provide any real sort of mitigation in those losses either. It's an extremely niche item that realistically has no place to be used outside of premade 3v3.

Also, how is 10% crit resist better than a flat 10% mitigation that a timmy provides?

TL;dr - losing the 75% regen bonus from a tier 1 timmy is already a significant loss in your survivability. Adding an additional 90% loss to regen is a bit insulting to not even provide a very reliable counter to the drains. The other benefits of the pet do somewhat help offset this... but not nearly enough to warrant losing all of your regen capabilitys to which there are already plenty of counters.

Freakymagic 05-02-2019 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchless (Post 202300)
Sounds like the argument and/or problem is regen and Timmy is OP in non 3v3 premade where you can't rely on a healer. And no one is trying self healing as an alternative due to it being underpowered or simply unexplored. As more and more counters to regen and tools that only work for nonregen come out, though, that may be a necessity.

The overall/average effect of the crit resist doesn't appear to be fully appreciated yet. This reduces damage taken by a considerable %, especially in PvP, and especially against attacks that would have had a greater chance to actually end your life.

curious what you mean by self healing? You can do dmg and vamp, Regen with timmies, or be a healer. Gl trying to heal without being a full blown staff healer, you end up doing nothing. Your not tanky, you dont do dps, and you dont heal enough for it to be effective.

Yes timmy is op. When timmy was first dropped EVERYONE said it was op. And made nod not fun...

No regen counters so lets sit here and hit each other till someone gets 1 shot 5+ mins into the fight. So fun.

Im all for new effects (crit resist) issue is its rng. "sure hope i dont get crit as bonus starts to ramp up" or i can have a massive regen bonus with flat mitigation on every attack (especially in bonus when you dont need to crit to do massive dmg + it effects dots dmg. I know what i choose 100% of the time)

Glitchless 05-02-2019 07:22 PM

Tsutsu, we're not trying to make regen builds any better. Pointing out how it doesn't work well for an XYZ regen build is moot.

Self healing as in any form of healing that doesn't come from regen. In order for nonregen builds to work outside of 3v3 premade, they probably need to become viable.

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchless (Post 202305)
Tsutsu, we're not trying to make regen builds any better. Pointing out how it doesn't work well for an XYZ regen build is moot.

Self healing as in any form of healing that doesn't come from regen. In order for nonregen builds to work outside of 3v3 premade, they probably need to become viable.

All self healing that doesn't come from a staff healer or regen isn't enough to sustain any of the damage you take in pvp for long at all. Which just means that the team with the drainer/dotter is generally going to be the one who wins. This LG doesn't provide anything new to the game other than the new anti crit proc... which this isn't a good item to put it on considering the mitigation from timmy is better in all situations....

Freakymagic 05-02-2019 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchless (Post 202305)
Tsutsu, we're not trying to make regen builds any better. Pointing out how it doesn't work well for an XYZ regen build is moot.

Self healing as in any form of healing that doesn't come from regen. In order for nonregen builds to work outside of 3v3 premade, they probably need to become viable.

Issue is this is "suppose" to be a counter to drains. Yet. the only format in which it could possibly work is premade where any serious team has a healer with staff of shielding which 100% countered drains. After myself and other supporting of asking for a drain counter for the NON premade formats (since we have 10+ months between premade seasons)

Yes it doesent help regen builds. It also doesent make the situation any better for those builds.

"tank" builds cant last long enough to taunt if they run the toad. If they run timmies they cant taunt. Both situations will end with the same result.

Caster builds CAN run the toad IF they dont also use regen. In which case it helps if they fight a drainer. If they dont fight a drainer there are other options that are much better to run. Yay niche item that only a very few will bother dropping ~50 mil into.

Non caster/non tank builds. Bms Could run it, but they lose out on vamp from stalker which is important to keep them alive. Melee/archer dps Can run it, but again, they either lose vamp/regen or lose dps (badgers/hogs). Again its a niche item that very few are going to drop ~50 mil to get.

I can go on and list every build in the game. Either The toad makes no improvement to the situation OR is slightly helpful in a small amount of fights that very few will bother to invest in.

The only way you could make non regen builds viable.. Is if you NERF regen. But we all know thats not your approach to the game.

Hell you could solve this situation (drains being WAY to strong, or 100% useless depending on if you have a healer or not) If you simply took some of the suggestions in the post that prompted this lg. Hell drains are not a lg. They cost next to no gold. No one is going to get their panties in a bunch and quit if drains were to get nerfed.

Glitchless 05-02-2019 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freakymagic (Post 202307)
Issue is this is "suppose" to be a counter to drains. Yet. the only format in which it could possibly work is premade where any serious team has a healer with staff of shielding which 100% countered drains. After myself and other supporting of asking for a drain counter for the NON premade formats (since we have 10+ months between premade seasons)

Yes it doesent help regen builds. It also doesent make the situation any better for those builds.

"tank" builds cant last long enough to taunt if they run the toad. If they run timmies they cant taunt. Both situations will end with the same result.

Caster builds CAN run the toad IF they dont also use regen. In which case it helps if they fight a drainer. If they dont fight a drainer there are other options that are much better to run. Yay niche item that only a very few will bother dropping ~50 mil into.

Non caster/non tank builds. Bms Could run it, but they lose out on vamp from stalker which is important to keep them alive. Melee/archer dps Can run it, but again, they either lose vamp/regen or lose dps (badgers/hogs). Again its a niche item that very few are going to drop ~50 mil to get.

I can go on and list every build in the game. Either The toad makes no improvement to the situation OR is slightly helpful in a small amount of fights that very few will bother to invest in.

The only way you could make non regen builds viable.. Is if you NERF regen. But we all know thats not your approach to the game.

Hell you could solve this situation (drains being WAY to strong, or 100% useless depending on if you have a healer or not) If you simply took some of the suggestions in the post that prompted this lg. Hell drains are not a lg. They cost next to no gold. No one is going to get their panties in a bunch and quit if drains were to get nerfed.

So there are multiple builds that can make use of it, but it comes with trade-offs. That's how LGs are supposed to be. Categorizing it as niche is not a negative thing. Given the amount of LGs, they can't all be usable by a majority of players. They are all either niche (i.e. balanced), overpowered, or underpowered.

Nerfing drains has not been doing because it would make regen even more powerful against the builds which can currently make use of drains vs. them.

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 08:54 PM

So instead our options are to be screwed, or use an item and still be screwed vs a gem that costs 100k. Got it. Nevermind the fact that even if drains got nerfed even 50% reduction they would still be really strong. There's already a ton of counters to regen that is "ohh so powerful" I've been beaten plenty of times by people NOT using drains. But the second someone does use drains, it is a guranteed loss. How is that balanced?

Glitchless 05-02-2019 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsutsu (Post 202309)
So instead our options are to be screwed, or use an item and still be screwed vs a gem that costs 100k. Got it. Nevermind the fact that even if drains got nerfed even 50% reduction they would still be really strong. There's already a ton of counters to regen that is "ohh so powerful" I've been beaten plenty of times by people NOT using drains. But the second someone does use drains, it is a guranteed loss. How is that balanced?

Trying to get a full understanding of this, cause we seem to be going in circles here. Who are the drainers who are beating you 100% of the time in arena?

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 09:11 PM

Unless i have a ridiclously op team? HK, fastizio, and a few non faced toons. The second i get drained I cannot taunt, if i cannot taunt the ohh so op toons that are with me die in seconds. Then it's 1v3 and generally they have someone to taunt for them, Can't get around that taunter with bifs due to being drained. Can't theft them due to staff of shielding either. Can't regen because I'm drained and they all run RoL.

Freakymagic 05-02-2019 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchless (Post 202308)
So there are multiple builds that can make use of it, but it comes with trade-offs. That's how LGs are supposed to be. Categorizing it as niche is not a negative thing. Given the amount of LGs, they can't all be usable by a majority of players. They are all either niche (i.e. balanced), overpowered, or underpowered.

Nerfing drains has not been doing because it would make regen even more powerful against the builds which can currently make use of drains vs. them.

Nerfing drains would not make regener's more powerful. There are so many regen counters that its not hard to get one for ANY build. It would weaken doters who are ridiculously strong (and guess what MOST use REGEN).

Yes, there are SOME builds that can use this new toad. Because they can does not mean they will. Let me spend 50 mil for a pet i will rarely use, and even when i do use it, i likely wont be able to swap to it in time for it to make any difference.

So yes, there is a choice. Do i continue as i was... Or do i waste 50 mil gold on a a pair of pets that will in the end make no difference. But hey, maybe if i get some lucky rng i wont get crit and ill die in 3 more attacks instead of that 1 crit.

Glitchless 05-02-2019 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freakymagic (Post 202321)
There are so many regen counters that its not hard to get one for ANY build.

...yet regen still dominates?

Tsutsu 05-02-2019 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glitchless (Post 202324)
...yet regen still dominates?

It "dominates" because of the people who are using it, not because of the regen its self. Which regen toons that aren't strong without regen are you talking about?

Freakymagic 05-02-2019 09:36 PM

no. it doesent dominate. Its used by a wide range of toons. The strong toons using it do well. The weak toons doing it dont use it well. In these stupid rng teams you cant depend on your team to heal you So everyone uses regen. its the easiest and most consistent form to heal and survive without depending on your team.

paulodjohn 05-03-2019 10:02 AM

Regen dominates because of the people who use it. Fair enough

The people who use it are smart and know it dominates so they use it. Nobody can say its not op. I dont use it in this format but im pretty sure every single toon that gives kills me in arena does use regen.


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