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Krockett 02-16-2009 03:16 PM

DOT Jeweler
 
I am playing around with a idea for a build using a jeweler/caster focusing on damage over time gems and heals. I would have to focus in Blue, Black, Green and White to make this shine. I would use White damage reduction aura, the healing gems from both white and green and need only one open slot for casting my single use draws. I have a couple of things I would want to clear up before I start him.

1. By using a combination of class bonuses and skills I am seeing the endgame ability to get a draw rate in excess of 100%.

Jeweler Class Bonus: 5%-15%
Gem Haste Aura: 4%-13%
Wizardry: 40%-80%

I assume this would mean that I would be able to play gems as fast as I could draw them with my only delay being the global cool down you get after a gem is cast. As a caster who is not using re-castables, draw rate would be of the greatest importance. Would this be the case or is there a hidden draw delay that would apply?

2. Dark Patience is described as follows:
Dark Patience - Every point in this skill increases the damage and duration of black damage over time gems by 0.5% but if you have a staff equipped it affects all colors.

The staff use would allow gems from Green, White, Red and of course Black. This with gem handling and using multiple levels would allow enough DOT gems in a bag of 50 to produce a consistent draw of something useful, but I want to be clear on the part of the description where it says "damage and duration".

Example:
Toxicity 19 / Black Magic (093) / 385 Mana
Target enemy is poisoned losing 550 hitpoints over 25 seconds.

This gives a Damage Per Second of 22 and does damage/mana at 3/1 roughly with max Staves (assuming full duration). If I am reading Dark Patience correctly and it increases the damage AND duration by 50% (instead of just the duration) then it would alter the spell as follows.

Example:
Toxicity 19 / Black Magic (093) / 385 Mana
Target enemy is poisoned losing 1237 hitpoints over 37 seconds.

This gives a Damage Per Second of 33 and does damage/mana at 5/1 roughly with max Staves. This is a huge increase in effectiveness but if it is just misworded and the duration is all that is increased then then the DPS is reduced back down to 22.

The over all damage potential is massive but unlike instant damage I won't come out of the gate at full damage like some classes. I like the concept of this character as I would not have to focus much at all on several stats such as INT, and later on STR & DEX. I do see it possible to get the damage per second up to near 1000 in the first 30 seconds of a fight with the right draws.

My last question is whether or not if this was put together would it be too effective, as in would it be nerfed as soon as someone actually made this character? All the previous means nothing if I put in the time and find out that in the end it would get set back.

Thanks.

Hopilus 02-16-2009 04:13 PM

its both damage and duration of the spell. its worded correctly.
good luck getting your skills to one hundred at this point though.

r5tse 02-16-2009 08:32 PM

All staff users at lvl 100 wizadry would be able to do lightning fast gem drawing.

The Short Form:
Time to reload for next gem fire = 1 second.
Normal gem draw = 8 seconds.
8 seconds - 1 second = 7 seconds (extra time between casts)
7/8 = 87.5% <-- gem haste required to get down to 1 second gem drawing.

87.5% - [40%+(40%) Lv 100 wizardy] = 7.5%
Good lvl gem haste spell 13% haste.
a 5.5% Gem Haste overkill.

Conclusion: All staff users at lvl 100 wizadry would be able to do lightning fast gem drawing.



The Long Form.
Intresting thread. actually i was pondering about the same idea. Originally i was going to be a DoT type caster, but then the Dark Patience really got to me.

I understand the damage being increased, but why the duration too?
let's say you have 10 hp damage / 10 seconds.
increase to 12 hp damage / 12 seconds. <-- that's still the sama dps.
You're just prolonging your damage.

But more idealy, I look at as damage per cast. including time inbetween casts. Essentially your gem will still finish it's full duration, except for the last couple spells. And you won't be getting any more damage while you wait for your next gem spell.

This is where the big issue with the potency of a pure DOT jewler. or rather any Caster type. Allow me to explain my findings.

As a warlock, i was trying to increase my damage. so i speed up my gem drawing by using cantrips. I figured i would be doing some awesome machine gun firing. I would get 1 or 2 or 3 after a row. Which did happen, but i spent my time waiting for my gem to ready for the next shot. Then it hit me. Gem drawing will only increase to a certain point.

Normal gem drawing is 8 seconds. and as a staff user you get 40% inate speed up in gem drawing via wizardy. Meaning you're looking at about 4.8 seconds per draw alone. Now with the potential at lvl 100 being 80% speed up. you're going to get a gem every 1.6 seconds. still without any other boosts. Take away the reloading time for a spell to next be fired, and the time spent draging and dropping and clicking. (let's say 1 second) you're down to a 0.6 second delay between shots.

0.6 seconds at that point wouldn't be noticable. especially if the battle doesn't last very long. if you use a gem haste spell you can match the speed of a jewler.

Essentially, any staff user would eventually be drawing at optimal speed in the end. But yes, the jewler would be faster until it reaches the magical 87.5% gem haste.

Hope my post is coherent and understandable.:mad:

Camli 02-16-2009 09:39 PM

Are you sure haste works that way? My understanding is that it works in a multiplicative fashion, increasing the number of gems you draw in a given time by that percent, rather than functioning as a reduction of the delay between draws.

8 seconds is the default draw rate, yes? 100% haste would double your drawing speed, giving you a 4 second draw -- allowing you to draw twice as many gems in the same amount of time.

For example, one of my characters is using a staff with level 4 wizardry, for 41.6% haste. Using the above calculations, my draw speed should be 4.672 seconds. However, I timed my draws at around 5.5 seconds, which is accurate with the way i believe haste works. ( 8 \ 1.416 = 5.65).

The wording on Dark Patience suggests that it increases both damage and duration, meaning the damage-per-second remains the same, making them more efficient, but not more powerful. It also makes stacking them easier, since a smaller percentage of the total damage is expended between casts.

So comparing level 0 to level 100, if cast an ignition that did 100 damage over 10 seconds, then cast it again 5 seconds later --

0 Dark Patience = 10 dps for the first 5 seconds, 15 dps for the remaining 10

100 Dark Patience = 10 dps for the first 5 seconds, 16.67 dps for the remaining 15 seconds

The skill is still worthwhile for any caster that uses DoT gems, since it's easier to stack your dots to boost dps, and makes the shorter duration dots more attractive.

I'd still say it's much more effective to combine direct damage and dot casting, however. Keep a Flare Up aura and some DD gems in your slots, and a free spot for cantrips and dots.

r5tse 02-16-2009 11:48 PM

hmmn, i really don't know how gem haste works. I'm guessing it works like that. ha.
i timed mine too and it takes more than 4.8 seconds. somewhere close to 6 seconds. So i'll take what you said and say that at 100% it's 4 seconds drawing. So now my post makes absolutely no sense. Jewlers actually do make a difference?

dmnthia 02-17-2009 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopilus (Post 22378)
good luck getting your skills to one hundred at this point though.

Why do you say that, Hopilus?

Hopilus 02-17-2009 09:19 AM

because lvl cap is seventy, and by the time you hit an eight five skill, you are getting no more then ten % of the xp off of every trophy. by the time you hit ninety nine in a skill, you are getting about one xp from every trophy.....(or something similar to that)

Krockett 02-18-2009 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopilus (Post 22446)
because lvl cap is seventy, and by the time you hit an eight five skill, you are getting no more then ten % of the xp off of every trophy. by the time you hit ninety nine in a skill, you are getting about one xp from every trophy.....(or something similar to that)

I don't think anyone would argue that level 100 is quite a ways off at this point, I am just wondering if a build that focuses entirely on DOT damage would be viable? There are many advantages I pointed out in my original post, but if the max draw haste still leaves us a 3-4 second delay, and that being after hundreds of hours of gameplay, then this build isn't viable in my opinion. It would take over 12 seconds t cast 4 gems. I think we all know how much damage is dished out by a melee class in that amount of time even at lower levels.

sherman 02-18-2009 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krockett (Post 22650)
I don't think anyone would argue that level 100 is quite a ways off at this point, I am just wondering if a build that focuses entirely on DOT damage would be viable? There are many advantages I pointed out in my original post, but if the max draw haste still leaves us a 3-4 second delay, and that being after hundreds of hours of gameplay, then this build isn't viable in my opinion. It would take over 12 seconds t cast 4 gems. I think we all know how much damage is dished out by a melee class in that amount of time even at lower levels.

Not to mention a DD casting archer. Even though the exp gains are lower, the high damage from a slow bow with the added damage from the relatively quick and constant gems. Not to mention if the archer could heal and daze. But a DOT caster would have to have a good bit of stamina to last. The reason is obvious, the mob wouldn't die very quickly, as the quickness of death would be dependent on the gems used. Nonetheless, a DOT caster would be a good group member as it provides a great constant amount of damage. One of the more reliable group members would be this one, in theory.

Necrox 02-26-2009 05:44 PM

Just a little pointer on the DoT gems. I have a feeling if you cast the same type of spell, what it does is reset the DoT clock, then add up the remaining damage of the last spell. Then it does damage every second by dividing the damage by the time left. It then reduces the damage and the time left.

Why is this important?

Poison for one: If you cast the green poison damage (10 dmg over 40), then the black poison damage (14 over 25), you get 24 over 25 seconds (which I've seen with my char when grouped). Best way to find out if the theory is right is to see if it works with a bow. If it does, you get a 134 damage over 25 seconds from one poison arrow and one rank 1 poison spell. You should see the damage go from 1 per sec to 5 per sec.

Hopilus 02-27-2009 10:57 AM

and dont forget sleight of hand. when that allows a double cast on a DoT...especially the higher ranked ones...*drools*

Chrism 02-27-2009 05:21 PM

I have to agree with Camli on how haste works in this game. The best reason I have for this is the 'Attack Haste' associated with Dual Weild. 100% haste does not bring your delay to 0, but rather to 1/2 the stated amount. Here's a formula for calculating it:

HastedDelay = StandardDelay * (1/(1+Haste%))

Assuming mulitiplicative bonuses (as most everything in this game is multiplicative rather than additive), and a StandardDelay of 8 seconds, you would get the following - assuming that these three modifiers were all at max:

Jeweler Class Bonus: 5%-15%
Gem Haste Aura: 4%-13%
Wizardry: 40%-80%

HastedDelay = 8.0seconds * (1/(1+15%)) * (1/(1+13%)) * (1/(1+80%)) = 3.42 seconds between gem draws.

Krockett 02-27-2009 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrism (Post 23530)
I have to agree with Camli on how haste works in this game. The best reason I have for this is the 'Attack Haste' associated with Dual Weild. 100% haste does not bring your delay to 0, but rather to 1/2 the stated amount. Here's a formula for calculating it:

HastedDelay = StandardDelay * (1/(1+Haste%))

Assuming mulitiplicative bonuses (as most everything in this game is multiplicative rather than additive), and a StandardDelay of 8 seconds, you would get the following - assuming that these three modifiers were all at max:

Jeweler Class Bonus: 5%-15%
Gem Haste Aura: 4%-13%
Wizardry: 40%-80%

HastedDelay = 8.0seconds * (1/(1+15%)) * (1/(1+13%)) * (1/(1+80%)) = 3.42 seconds between gem draws.

I think you are right on this, and 3.42 sec delay really isn't that bad. Sadly though, as Hop pointed out, skill levels of 100 aren't realistic right now and getting there would be just to weak. Maybe we could talk Jeff into some recastable DOTS? :)


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